The Need for Higher Association

Locananada Prabhu’s recent article is a re-print from the VNN forum.

I am posting to the news page the rest of our dialogue there. His post was not left unanswered .

I am offering for anyone interested in clearing away the cloud of illusion that is manifest by his soft ritvik position, which negates the importance of Sadhu sanga and leaves new devotees without any real hope for a bona fide spiritual master. The siksa from Srila Prabhupada’s books and tapes will benefit anyone who takes advantage of them . But the need for a bona fide spiritual master as declared by Lord Krsna in Bg. 4.34 will never stop to be a reality for anyone hoping to progress in Krsna consciousness. The bare facts are that Iskcon of today does not even teach its new members to read and study His Divine Grace’s books carefully. If they did they would leave iskcon in a flash and look for association with higher Vaisnavas and for association with a pure devotee. That is what Srila Prabhupada has written in his purports in so many places.

The need for such association is there for new and old devotees alike. Until we are on the highest platform of pure devotion, suddha bhakti, filled with Krsna prema we should always seek out pure devotees to help guide us. And if and when we reach our ultimate goal, then we will have their association eternally, from within our heart and within our purified mind. .

Locanananda:. . . "I am sure that you are already aware of the same principle of "acharya purusa" diksa relationships practiced in the Ramanuja sampradaya, another bona fide vaisnava lineage where the role of the founder is to act as the deliverer guru of those initiated in succeeding generations."

Puru:. . . Srila Prabhupada is the founder-acarya of ISKCON but not the founder of our gaudiya sampradaya. That position is held by Lord Brahma. and Ramanujacarya was instructed by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself to establish the Sri Sampradaya as is explained in the Nabadwipa Mahatmya of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. The four catur slokas of the Srimad Bhagavatam and the kama gayatri first chanted by Lord Brahma guide our sampradaya to this day, but Lord Brahma is only delivering the followers in his line through the present living acaryas who appear in it. I believe you are confusing one principle with another. Srila Prabhupada cannot give living siksa any longer any more than he can give living diksa. Covered ritvik from you that is all.

Your older and more highly realized god brother Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj said you cannot get sabdha or association from a tape recorder. Can a tape answer your question if you have a doubt? No. It can only give you some record of what the acarya said, and that becomes like his books, shastra. Prabhupada is delivering through his instructions in his books and they tell us to find bona fide diksa and siksa guru. That is all. Look in first canto of SB and you will see this in many purports, the imporatnce of HEARING from the lips of pure devotees. Here is one sample previously mentioned:.

.. . .The Acharya or the Goswami must be well ecquanted with all these literary field. To hear and explain them is more important than reading. One can only assimilate the knowlege of the revealed scriptures by hearing and explaining. Hearing is called SHRABAN and explaining is called KIRTAN. Therefore these two processesnamely Shraban and Kirtan are two principal factors in the progressive spiritual life. One who has properly grasped the transcendental knowledge from the right source by submissive hearing only can properly explain the subject." SB 1.1.6

You are Srila Prabhupada's diksa disciple and you heard from him direct, so you can explain what you heard from him up to your capacity and realization. A new devotee does not have the same opportunity with regard to His Divine Grace as you did and must also hear from the lips of a pure devotee. The tapes and books are not enough. They have not inspired even the direct disciples sufficiently to keep the mission in tact, let alone uninitiated new comers. Ritvik is useless for them, either for diksa or siksa.

Locanananda:. . . " How Srila Prabhupada is currently able to enter the hearts of his followers and deliver them from nescience is not a subject for conjecture,"

Puru:. . . No certainly not, but the acaryas speak through each other and one must hear from the current acarya. If guru is one and merely has many forms, then a sincere sadhaka will seek out and find (Bg. 4.34) a bona fide acarya and not settle fo an officiating anything. Cheat the new devotees if you want to with this ritvik idea but not with silence from me on the matter.

Locanananda: . . . " but according to the Srimad Bhagavatam, a pure devotee spiritual master is so empowered: tam sarva-bhuta-hrdayam"

Puru:. . . Yes, so everyone must find one and hear from him directly. That is the key. Kindly examine this purport if you will. SB 1.2.31

. . ".Parmamatma can be felt by the process of legitimate hearing and chanting of the transcendental subject. The transcendental subject is specially dealt in the Vedic literatures like the Upanisads and Vedanta and Srimad Bhagavatam is the bona fide explantion of the same Vedic literature. The Lord can be realised through the aural reception of the transcendental message and that is the only source of experiencing transcendental subject. As fire is kindled from the wood by another peace of fire siimilarly the divine consciousness of man can be kindled up by another divine grace. His Divine Grace the Spiritual master can kindle up the spiritual fire from the woodlike living entity by imparting proper spiritual messaged injected through the receptive ear. Therefore one is required to approach the proper spiritual master with receptive ear only and the Divine existance is thus gradually realised. The difference of animality and humanity lies in this process only. A human being can hear properly while the animal cannot." [SB. l.2.31 ] Translation and commentray by His Divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. No mention of approaching a tape recorder, VCR or book. But the bona fide spiritual master. Bas.

Locanananda:. . . munim anato 'smi.

Puru:. . .. .indeed.

Locanananada . . . " Most individuals are not inclined to analyze the philosophy in such depth. Many are simply happy to chant Hare Krishna and perform devotional service".

Puru:. . . This is a description of a lazy disciple.

Nana sastra vicaranakaika nipanau. . .

The six goswamis scrutinisingly studied the revealed scriptues for the benefit of humanity at large. This laxidasical attitude was not accepted by His Divine Grace. In Bg. 10.4-5 he reject blind following and always encouraged us to study his books.

What Movement are you trying to propagate?. The mindless chanting movement.?

And where are all of your god brothers?

And who is left in the Iskcon mandirs doing this chanting? How many left in the Brooklyn temple? How many bhaktas in Yajna Purusha's ahsram? How many can you name? How many going out on harinama with Suddha Niddhi? I can name six newly initiated students who are interested in more depth than you care to offer. Stay in the kiddie pool and we will try to learn to swim in the deep end.

Locanananda:. . . "They are not any less advanced or pure-hearted."

Puru:. . . Don't put these words in my mouth if you please. but they are certaily less thoughtful and not high quality students if they are not interested in Srila Prahupada's books.

Locanananada. . . " And they depend upon the Holy Name to reveal Himself in all of His glory when they reach the offenseless stage of chanting"

Puru:. . . And just how will they do that with insufficient guidance? Are you going to inspire them? Is the GBC going to inspire them? Will Ramabadhra prabhu inspire them? Will Rompada inspire them? Please supply a list of names if you wil who they are inspriingl. I can easily offer you my six after I compile a list. In Florida recently more than 100 devotees gathered each evening to hear from Srila Narayan Maharaja, perform kirtan and bhajan and take prasadam together ... You were not there, as were not many of your god brothers. Were you all chanting somewhere else and hearing hari katha from Srila Prabhupada's tapes and videos,

Locanananda:. . . " Those who are coming in contact with Srila Prabhupada are doing just that by studying his teachings and serving his mission. The spiritual master appears before the sincere devotee in an infinity of forms, and prominent amongst those forms is the form of the founder acharya."

Puru:. . . Our founder acarya departed in 1977. None can contact his vapuh anymore, only his siksa. Why you live in the past? Everything has gone well since 1977? What is his present manifestation?

Locanananda:. . . ." Anyone who has implicit faith in the words of Srila Prabhupada"

Puru:. . . Why you have replaced Srila Prabhupada's name in place of "the spiritual master" as though he is the only acarya worth hearing from? He is your diksa guru. You have special love for him. Cc. Adi lila 1.35 frees you to hear from other acaryas. Why you won't listen to your diksa guru and seek out siksa guru to help further guide your devotional development and education? .

Locanananada. . . " will very soon understand the import of all of the Vedic literature: yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha guroh..."

Puru:. . . undoubtedly but not without help from higher Vaisnavas. Unless you are able to hear direct from caitya guru. Then dandavat pranams to you and please enlighten me..

Locanananda:. . . "As a point of information, the term "officiating acharya" was introduced by Srila Prabhupada, our spiritual master, when he was specifically asked by the GBC how he wanted initiations to be performed when he would no longer be present."

Puru:. . . This instruction is ambiguous if not a manipulation from the mouths of men who cannot be trusted, due to their ambition, greed and lack of integrity. You have not produced anything from His Divine Grace's books. That is what I asked for and you have danced around the issue like all ritvik oriented so called philosophers.

Locanananda:. . . "There is no debate within ISKCON on this point, but some devotees like yourself have to turn a deaf ear to this order of the spiritual master to rationalize that there is no solution to the initiation question within ISKCON"

Puru:. . . There is no question that ISKCON has rejected the guru parampara in favor of a sectarian viewpoint that takes the position of acarya and manipulates it into something less than what the shastra explains it to be. In that way naked emperors can wear their non existant clothing and pretend to be something they are not. Upadesamrta Text 5 purport clearly explains that such "acaryas" cannot give anything but "insufficiient guidance toward the ultimate goal."

Locanananda:. . . . "We will now have to add to your list of diseases like haribolo virus, GBCitis, and ISKCONitis the disease of the inner ear infection that keeps us from hearing certain instructions spoken by the spiritual master."

Puru:. . . So thank you for your diagnosis, If you think that there is need for any "system" different than the one delineated by Krsna in Bg. 4.34 then please by all means try to find someone within Iskcon with the integrity to be honest about his position as kanistha, madhyama or uttama. Send me his name, and also let me know who he accepts at siksa guru. If he does not have siksa guru and thinks he can find all he needs from reading then he is also a ritvik who ignores sadhu sanga and will not be able to hear submissively from pure devotees. I turn a deaf ear to inconclusive and unsubstantiated claims as to what Srila Prabhupada's instructions were. You have still not presented any shastra or reference from his Divine Grace's books, only your unclear understanding form conversations poorly recorded and out of context. Not much more evidence than what I get from the ritviks.. You think ISKCON will repair itself then take the association of your kanistha god brothers and please do not try to rise higher . There is nothing esoteric about the study of Srila Prabhupada's Cc. purports. Srila Promode Puri Goswami has written that if you do not understand the ultimate goal of your bhajan then it is useless. You can think that bhakti is a simple matter of hearing and chanting the maha mantra. This may be true to some extent but without the association of saintly persons one cannot be inspired to chant offenselessly. Time to study more and spout less prabhu. Your realization appears to be limited by your association which is what exactly? ISKCON has rejected you. Why you believe vainly that Iskcon will change or that Iskcon has much of anything to do with His Divine grace anymore?

And we are not part of the Ramanuja sampradaya as a matter of fact. When did His Divine Grace instruct that we should follow their system? Siksa from His Divine grace is eternal and always available. But you also need living siksa guru. Don't you? And where is ther any shastric reference to support your idea that Ramanuja is the deliverer gurudeva of everyone in the Sri Sampradaya. He is the source of their siksa, no doubt, but so fare your supposition is not supported by shastra.

Or do you think you can understand the written word of your gurudeva without hearing from the present acarya. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura rejected that idea soundly. Perhaps you should listen to your grandfather as well.

Otherwise not, and stay kanistha forever and condemn all the devotees in Iskcon (and how many are left ?) to the same platform and take them all out on harinama and simultaneously ignore the purpose of Lord Caitanya's appearance. But you will not get bhakti that way. Only bhakti abhasa. If that satisfies you then chant and be happy.
Puru:. . . Indeed the real ISKCON is the eternal family of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

That family is inclusive not exclusive and is not hampered or delineated by institutional boundaries, walls or considerations, or any one acarya in particular as long as they are connected to the tree of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

VNN Forum post. . . "One of the merits of Srila Prabhupada's officiating acarya or ritvik representative of acarya initiating system is that the performer of the formal ceremony need not be an uttama adhikari . . . . . in contact with. . ."

Puru: . . . NEVER!!! not in our sampradaya anyway! Try forming your own, but first come up with your own ritvik commentary on the vedanta sutra or forever hold your peice.

Puru:. . . Dear Locanananda Prabhu,

Also the idea that Srila Prabhupada established ISKCON as an entity indifferent and seprate from other Gaudiya institutions is bhogus. He certainly guided the management of ISKCON, but never intended that its members should consider themselves above and beyond help and guidance from other Vaisnavas. Vaisanva etiquette is no small matter. Vaisnava etiquette is not a KC version of Emily Post, but is deep understanding of how devotees should see each other and interact on the platform of love and not self righteousness.

This sectarian institutionalitis prevents devotees like yourself from hearing from pure souls in our line in the name of "loyalty to Srila Prabhupada." Time to read the man who Srila Prabhupada instructed us to consult on philosophy, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, for a broader view. Here is an excerpt from another perceptive Vaisnava acarya, Srila Narayan Maharaj:

Once I was travelling from Navadvipa by train. Acyutananda dasa and two other devotees were in the same compartment. An Indian gentleman asked Acyutananda, "Who are you? Are you Gaudiya Vaisnavas?" He flatly replied, "No, we are from ISKCON. We are disciples of Srila Prabhupada. We're not connected with other Gaudiya Vaisnavas." Upon hearing this, I became sorry. "I know that Swamiji would not tell you to speak like this, to say that you are not affiliated with the Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Perhaps you are not understanding correctly. If you declare this then you are like a kuputra, a disobedient son who is not a real son of his father." I told the persons who were asking that his Gurudeva was a Gaudiya Vaisnava, a very bona-fide and exalted disciple of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and that he had taken sannyasa from our Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja. I explained that we are all different branches in the same tree of the Gaudiya Vaisnava parampara.

The net result of not appreciating pure devotees wherever their fruit hangs from the Caitanya tree is hopelessness, illusion and so many diseases: GBCitits
saffronitis
Iskconitis
institutionalitis
haibolo virus
cluelessness
self delusion
to name just a few.

Puru:. . . Locanananda Prabhu,

I would like to know where in Srila Prabhupada's books we find the word "officiating acarya," or any reference to someone assuming the role of guru when he is less than really qualified. Upadesamrta and Cc. Adi lila are extremely clear on this topic and they do not discuss half way measures to establish make believe guru and disciple relationships. Our guru parampara began with Lord Brahma and is eternal. Not one of the acaryas in our line has ever changed it or deviated from its established truths. Guru, sadhu and shastra, not some management idea very unclearly if at all ever even stated by the founder acarya.

Also I would like to know where in Srila Prabhupada's books you have read that Harinama Sankirtana will in and of itself clear all misconceptions regarding tattva?

I have never read that any one of the nine processes of devotional service is exclusively responsible for releasing the jiva soul from his conditioning. Srila Bhaktivionda Thakura explains the science of bhakti in much more detail. He has written how chaya bhakti abhasa can be transformed into real suddha bhakti in his bhakti-tattva-viveka essays on Srila Rupa Goswamis' Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu.

Conspicuous by its absence in your posts is any mention of sadhu sanga, or the direct association of pure devotees.

If you read in Srimad Bhagavtam l.l.6 in the last paragraph of the purport Srila Prabhuapda writes that "hearing is more important than reading." Where do you read in any of his books that sankirtan is more important than sadhu sanga?

Looks to me like you are being sucked in by the Titanic's undertow and have a case of haribolo virus. No matter how many maha mantras devotees chant, if they remain insubmissive to the meaning of the holy name and ignore hari katha from the lips of pure Vaisnavas, how will they ever progress from the kanistha platform? How will they ever chant anything but the shadow of the Name and how will they give up their anartha nivrttis?

A more comprehensive formula for the cure of our material entanglement would seem in order, than just everyone go out and bang the mrdunga and clank the kartals. No one minimizes the importance of harinama naga sankirtan. But Mahavisnu can offer this to the jiva souls. Mahaprabhu offered something far more deeper by His example in Nilacala during his hast 18 manifest years. He performed Harinama with 10,000 strong. No harm to perform harinama. In this day and age under present circumstances can you gather even 100 men? Even 50? Even 25? How about 10?

After the Lord left Nabadwipa his harinama pastimes changed to other more internal manifestations of pure bhakti. He received instructions from Ramananda Raya and Svarupa Damodara. Harinama was not the only thing that He taught by His divine example.

We both know many devotees who go out on harinama and still can't understand spit about guru tattva, or jiva tattva and are still comitting Vaisnava aparadha.

If Iskcon is Srila Prabhupada's "body" then what about His Divine Grace's soul? He said so many times, aham brahmasmi. I am not this body. Maybe we have to rewrite the phrase for some "I am not this institution."

So sometimes the VNN Foum gets hot and heavy. Name calling and ad homenim attacks, knee jerk responces and even tempers sometimes flare. But since my godbrother or someone has chosen to post his forum remarks I though it only fair to present mine as well for anyone who is interested.

Locananadna prabhu and I have been good friends for many years. We do not see guru tattva in the same way. We do not see the need for siksa guru in the same way. We no longer serve together, and have different understanding of how Iskcon will ever function, while we still share concern and hope for the propagation of Srila Prabhupada’s mission. It is with a sad heart that I find myself juxtaposed to him on these issues, but I can only take shelter of Srila Sridhar Maharaj’s remarks in Sri Guru and His grace,and my own realization . Above and beyond all I pray for the mercy of my beloved diksa gurudeva His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhuapada and my beloved siska gurudeva His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktivedanta Naryan Maharaj as well.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj has written:

God Consciousness vs. Society Consciousness

Responding to the necessity of the times Srila Sridhara Maharaja lucidly explains the absolute societal conception of Krsna consciousness:

Devotee: Within a religious mission, sectarian policies may appear to bar the path of progress and pragmatic concerns take precedence over spiritual ideals. Should one risk leaving the formal institution or should he try to remain within and work out the problems?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Progress means elimination and new acceptance. So, when there is a clash between the relative and the absolute standpoint, the relative must be left aside, and the absolute accepted. The example is given of a socialist in a country of capitalists. When there is a clash, one will not express their creed for the sake of peace. But to maintain the purity of their faith for the socialists they will try to leave and join the socialists.

- - -[Shri Guru & His Grace: ] Shri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha

Sripad Puru das
Prabhu Page