Ritvik Rag Forum

The Ritvik Rag Forum Discussion that Sudama would rather you didn't read:

I would like to make a comment on the following article by Jadurani Dasi. Because the article is so long I have posted the link here for reference:

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET0201/ET09-7088.htm

The main point of her article is that we need Narayan Maharaj to interpret Srila Prabhupada's books for us:

"Prabhupada is certainly present in his books. No one will deny that. But it is by the association and guidance of pure devotees that we neophytes can get access to the deep meanings of those books. The great depths of Prabhupada's books are like a treasure chest, and the key to unlock the lock is in the hands of pure devotees."

Furthermore, Srila Prabhupada went to great trouble to be sure that his lectures were recorded on audio tapes beginning in 1966. A quote from "The Beginning" - Srila Prabhupada's 1966 New York diary:

"Srila Prabhupada's resolve is evidenced by the purchase of his first tape recorder, a major expenditure for him. He started recording his classes, kirtanas and bhajanas. He wrote in his journal: "There was no response of the visitors invited to come and join Hari Kirtan this evening at 7:30 pm. But I alone executed the Kirtan ceremony with my tape recorder till 10 pm." Srila Prabhupada's prescience in preserving his spoken word has resulted in a permanent legacy of over two thousand hours of invaluable tape recordings."

Are we to believe the ridiculous notion that we must have Narayan Maharaj explain to us what Srila Prabhupada is saying on his lecture tapes? Prabhupada is available for anyone to associate with DIRECTLY through his lectures and books.

I'd also like to know who is going to interpret Narayan maharaj's books and lectures after he leaves his body. Perhaps Jadurani would like to perform this service!

Jadurani dasi also known as Syamarani dasi (a name given by Narayan Maharaj) thinks that Srila Prabhupada hasn't given us everything. We need NM to further advance.
A discipe of Prabhupada taking initiation from someone else?! This is NONSENSE!
Srila Prabhupada has given us EVERYTHING in his books and recorded lectures! We must have that faith that he will take us back to Godhead if we become attached to his lotus feet! Not that after his dissapearance from our material vision we start running around like a prostitute to this guru or that guru.
"Becouse I can't serve his physical body any longer, he's not present before these two limited eyes, I must find somebody who's body is present infront of ME." NO! We can serve His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada DIRECTLY as Sudama prabhu has said. Even if we can't "see him" we get his FULL association when we read his books, listen to his lectures and serve him through his instrucions. Srila Prabhupada's system he set up for us is PERFECT and COMPLETE.
He explains it in ENGLISH for us to understand. Prabhupada extends his mercy to EVERYONE. And not just a few intimate disciples. He can take us all back to Krishna if we are willing to follow. There is no need for gaudiya-math sanyasis to xplain the meaning of what is Prabhupada saying! Prabhupada explains it himself!
Does Narayan Maharaj want to become the next acarya of ISKCON and kick Srila Prabhupada off his seat in the name of taking us further, giving us more than what Srila Prabhupada has given us?!

You are both missing the point completely. This is because neither of you understand or appreciate the principle of anugatya (guidance) and sadhu sanga,and the necessity for association-direct vapuh association- and chanting in the phsyical proximity of a pure devotee.

Srila Prabhupada said many times "Chanting must be heard from the lips of a pure devotee, otherwise milk touched by lips of a serpent has a poisonous effect."

Both of you and all of the rtvk allies, simply misconstrue vaisnava siddhanta. Among the many false conceptions you harbor, one is to think that if you hear the maha mantra once from a pure vaisnava, or hear it on a tape recording,then that is sufficient. No, you must constantly hear and chant in such association directly. This is confirmed in too many places in His Divine Graces books to mention them here, or you will have an avalanche of quotes.

Suffice it to say that Srila Sridhar Maharaja explained the matter of siksa guru very concisely and perfectly in his discussion with the gbc after His Divine Grace departed. Read this small segment if you can manage to broaden your capacity a bit:

Consider the words of Srila Prabhuapda's senior god brother who he accepted as his siksa guru, ( proof of that is amply provided) Srila Bhakti Raksak Srridhar Mahraj who has said:

"For our own interest, whatever we find which is akin to what was given to us by our guru maharaja, whatever we find that will enlighten us further, and whatever will help us to understand more clearly what we heard from our guru maharaja, must be accepted. Is my realization a living thing, or is it dead? Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing." That should be the salient point."
Sri Guru and His Grace

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/sri_guru_5.htmA basic undertsanding of this topic can be had by studying carefully the following verse and purports

Cc. Adi lila 1.35-1.47
Nectar of Devotion Chapter 19: Association with Pure devotees.
Nectar of Instruction Verse 4 and 5

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-13 08:40 ]

Here is a sample of what His Divine Grace actually says about accepting a siksa guru. Kindly give it your attention and try to understand the depth of the topic if you can.

In Cc. Adi lila 1.35 in his purport, His Divine Grace has written:

"A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept."

". . . When by learning from the self-realized spiritual master one actually engages himself in the service of Lord Visnu, functional devotional service begins. The procedures of this devotional service are known as abhidheya, or actions one is duty bound to perform. Our only shelter is the Supreme Lord, and one who teaches how to approach Krsna is the functioning form of the Personality of Godhead. There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service. . . The initiating spiritual master is a personal manifestation of Srila Madana-mohana vigraha, whereas the instructing spiritual master is a personal representative of Srila Govindadeva vigraha. Both of these Deities are worshiped at Vrndavana. Srila Gopinatha is the ultimate attraction in spiritual realization."
Cc. Adi lila 1.47 purport
HDGACBSP

In that speech please take note of this particular remark:

"Gentlemen, the offering of such an homage as has been arranged this evening to the acaryadeva is not a sectarian concern, for when we speak of the fundamental principle of gurudeva or acaryadeva, we speak of something that is of universal application. There does not arise any question of discriminating my guru from yours or anyone else’s."

In the Mundaka Upanisad (1.2.12) it is said:

tad-vijnartham sa gurum evabhigacchet
samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham

"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth."

Thus it has been enjoined herewith that in order to receive that transcendental knowledge, one must approach the guru. Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two. The acaryadeva to whom we have assembled tonight to offer our humble homage is not the guru of a sectarian institution or one out of many differing exponents of the truth. On the contrary, he is the jagad-guru, or the guru of all of us, the only difference is that some obey him wholeheartedly, while others do not obey him directly.."
HDGACBSP
Our Eternal Guide

"There is only one guru, who appears in an infinity of forms to teach you, me and all others. . .Therefore, if the Absolute Truth is one, about which we think there is no difference of opinion, the guru cannot be two."

You should also please be more careful, when speaking about highly elevated Vaisnavas like Srila B.V. Narayan Maharaj, in the name of praising Srila Prabhupada. You have not associated with him have you? So how do you know or appreaciate what he is teaching and how he is inspiring His Divine Grace's disciples to be better disciples? Kindly stop assuming what SNM intends or says,because you have misunderstood something written by Jadurani.

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-13 08:43 ]

you qoute:

In Cc. Adi lila 1.35 in his purport, His Divine Grace has written:

"A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept. "

Than why does Narayan Maharaj re-initiate disciples from spiritual masters who are in good standing in ISKCON? According to scripture it is always forbidden!

Yes, in fact, Srila Narayan Maharaj does re-initiate Prabhupada's disciples. Many of them now claim that the initiations by cassette tape, whereby the new disciple hears the gayatri mantra from Srila Prabhupada on the tape, are bogus. They say that the initiations by tape are bogus and that you have to take re-initiation from Narayan maharaj.

Furthermore Jadurani dasi has given up her initiated name in favor of the name 'Syamarani'. I cannot say for certain whether or not she took the 'siddha pranali' initiation from Narayan Maharaj but it is CERTAINLY a great offense to give up the name given to you by Srila Prabhupada himself!!!

Puru mentioned:

"Among the many false conceptins they harbor one is to think that if you hear the maha mantra once from a pure vaisnava, or hear it on a tape recording,then that is sufficient. No, you must constantly hear and chant in such association directly. This is confirmed in too many places in His Divine Graces books to mention them here, or you will have an avalanche of quotes."

Letter to: Cidananda
--
Bhaktivedanta Manor
25 November, 1973

My Dear Cidananda,
Please accept my blessings.
I am in due receipt of your letter and your kind words to me.
Thank you very much.
I should be returning to Los Angeles the last week of November
and I should be more than happy to see you there. Please always
try to remember me by my teachings and we shall always be
together. Just like I have written in the first publications of
Srimad-Bhagavatam, "The spiritual Master lives forever by His
divine instruction and the disciple lives with him.", because I
have always served my Guru Maharaja and followed His teachings I
am now even never separated from Him. Sometimes Maya may come and
try to interfere but we must not falter, we must always follow the
chalked out path layed down by the great acharya's and in the end
you will see.
I hope this letter finds you healthy and in blissful serving
mood.

Your ever well wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

ACBS.mda

Here are some more quotes:

"The separated energy can be understood from a practicalexample. I compose books by speaking into a dictaphone, and whenthe dictaphone is replayed, it appears that I am speakingpersonally, but actually I am not. I spoke personally, but thenthe dictaphone tape, which is separate from me, acts exactly likeme."

"I will send you one tape made by me of Gayatri mantra. Theyshould simply listen one at a time, privately, through the rightear and at the same time repeat each mantra, while reading it fromone paper. You can also explain beforehand how to count on thefingers. Then, if the devotee is male, give the sacred thread.Then hold a fire yajna as you have seen done before. Send thethread here to me before the ceremony is to be held and I willchant Gayatri mantra on the thread(s) personally."

Srila Prabhupada's DIRECT association by hearing ki jaya!!!!

Again you both display your lack of understanding concerning 3 points:
1)re initiation
2)siksa of gayatri mantra
3)receiving diksa by tape recording of the mantra

and it is largely a waste of time to exchange anything with you. However you should know that re initiation is an oxymoron and does not exist. Either you are initiated by a bona fide guru or you are not. "RE initiation" is not a word in sanskrit, bengali or any other language we find our shastra written in.

Srila Narayana Maharaj has NEVER
"re-initiated" anyone who accepted diksa mantra from Srila Prabhupada. Simply he has given to some interested disciples of His Divine Grace siksa of the gayatri mantra. This is authorized and bona fide behavior of any siksa guru. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written in his commentary of the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu the Bhakti-tattva viveka; as follows:

"(1) The svarupa-jnana or intrinsic knowlege convcerning the sadhaka (the practitioner), the sadhana (the practice) and the sadhya (the object of achievement) is nondifferent from the svarupa of suddha-bhakti. When such svarupa jnana has not yet arisen within a sadhaka but the desire to cross over the ocean of material existence has come within him, then whatever symptoms of bhakti which are visible in him in that condition are merely bhakti-abhasa. This bhakt abhasa transforms into suddha-bhakti when one obtains svarupa jnana. EVEN FOR VAISNAVAS WHO ARE DULY INITIATED INTO THE GENUINE SAMPRADAYA, THE VASTU-PRABHA, OR ILLUMINATION OF ONE'S ETERNAL IDENTITY ARISING FROM THEIR DISKA MANTRA WHICH THEY RECEIVED FROM THEIR DISKA GURU, WON'T APPEAR UNTIL THEY RECEIVE THIS SVARUPA JNANA BY THE MERCY OF A SIKSA GURU."
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura
Bhakti-tattva-viveka
pp. 49

SBSST also instructed his disciple Srila Bhakti Saranga Gosvami Maharaj to initiate Ms. Daisy Cecila Bowtell in London, who became Vinoda Vani 1930's. Because she was so far away from SBSST even though she wanted to be his follower SBSST instructed his sannyasa disciple to give the mantra to her. This is because you should hear the mantra from the lips of another vaisnava.

What Srila Narayana Maharaj has actually said about this practice in iskcon is quite different from what you have fallaciously mis reported. Here are his actual words.Kindly stop misrepresenting what he says, does and thinks. You simply have no fund of knowledge in this regard and are only increasing the amount of aparadha in your bank account.

Concerning Accepting diksa through mechanical voice recordings? Srila Naaarayana Maharaj has actually said:

"Some people talk about accepting diksa through the medium of the audio cassettes of great personalities after they have disappeared. There are various flaws in this ideology. Before giving diksa, a guru examines the characteristics, thoughts, intentions , and so on of the aspiring candidate. Similarly, for some period of time, the aspirant will also observe the gurutva (greatness), conduct, bhajana and attitudeof his guru. When both of them are satisfied, then only is there an arrangement to give and to accept diksa. This process is not possible through cassettes once the guru is no longer physically present. It is not possible for the cassette to examine the aspirant before giving diksa, and neither is it possible for the aspirant to observe the greatness,conduct and mode of bhajana of the guru though the medium of cassettes alone.

"From the history of our sampradaya, it is well known that Krsna Dvaipayana Vedavyasa was a perfected saint or guru of Dvarpara-yuga. But yet his sat-sisya, Srila Madhvacarya, had direct darsana of Srila Vedavyasa who had appeared about 5000 years prior to him. Despite being so qualified, Srila Madhvacarya never thought he could become the disciple of Srila Vedavyasa without the latter’s physical presence. On hearing the sincere prayers of Srila Madhvacarya, Srila Vedavyasa personally appeared before him and gave him diksa. We can observe many such examples in the scriptures. A sad-guru can manifest anywhere by the prayers of sat-sisya. For the common people, the process of accepting diksa is to directly receive krsna-mantra from a sad-guru who knows krsna-tattva. But in the case of uttama-adhikaris, the example of bhagvata parampara is visible everywhere. Hence, it is not a proven fact that the cassette is a bona fide and effective medium to give diksa.

"If, in modern times, in special circumstances a guru has given diksa through his representative or through cassette, this still cannot be accepted as the ultimate principle for everyone at all times and in all places. A guru may give diksa through the medium of his representative or cassette to a faithful person who is living in a remote place, and cannot personally come before his guru due to circumstances. But this is a temporary situation arising out of extreme circumstances only. Whenever it is possible, the guru willhimself personally give diksa."

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-12 19:26 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-13 08:54 ]

On 2002-01-12 15:08, sg108 wrote:
you qoute:

In Cc. Adi lila 1.35 in his purport, His Divine Grace has written:

"A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept."

Than why does Narayan Maharaj re-initiate disciples from spiritual masters who are in good standing in ISKCON? According to scripture it is always forbidden!

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains why it is useless to discuss anything with persons who think like you do. He has written in Jaiva Dharma:

"When an inimical person who has adopted divegent opinions hears glorification of suddha-bhakti, he will immediately retorn with some futile argument, beneficial neither for you nor for him. One should avoid such fruitless arguments and interact wiht such people only so far as routine social dealings are concerned. If you say it would be best t oinclude inimical people among the ignorant and bestow mercy upon them, then far form helping them, you will only harm yourself. Benevolence should be applied bu it should be done with cuation. . .The degree of mercy tht the maydyama bhaktas bestow upon the igorant depends on the degree of the people's sincerity or foolishness."

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-12 23:38 ]

Unless something of monumental aparadha and distortion rears its ugly head, there are only a few distortions in the rtvk posts to left to answer.

Since you claim to understand what His Divine Grace is teaching DIRECT, then you can explain for everyone what he means in this purport to the Bg. 4.10

According to Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, the science of devotional service:

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya
tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah
athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati
sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah

In the tika(commentary) of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakra we can read aditional information to help illuminate Srila Prabhupada's words. Of course you shouldn't read them if you thnk you understand it compeletly because reading another acarya is not reading SP direct, now is it? Only those who understand how Vaisnava disciplic succession works and who can appreciate the significance of "adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango" should read further, otherwise not!!!

Second Wave-Sadhana Bhakti
Bhakti in the Stage of Cultivation

(3)Stages Leading to the Appearance of Prema

[b]adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya
tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah
athasaktis tato bhavass tatah premabhyudancati

Sri Cakravartipada's Sanskrit Commentary

atra bahusvarpi kramesu satsu prayikam ekam kramam aha advaitidvayena. Adau prathama-sadhu-sange sasra-sravana dvara sraddha tadartha-visvasah. Tatah sraddanantaram dvitiyah sadhu-sango bhajana riti siksartham. Nistha bhajane aviksepena satatyam kintu budhi purvikeyam. Asaktis tu svarasikai. Etena nisthasasktyor bhedo jneyah.

There are many stages leading to the manifestation of prema. Among them, those that are most famous in the scriptures will be described here. The bhagavad-vimukha-jiva or one whose face is averted from Bhagavan has from a time without beginning (anadi-kala) fallen into the unlimited flow of the insurmountable ocean of material existence and is thus wandering here and there. When by the special mercy of Bhagavan, the jiva's material existence begins to wane, he obtains the company of sadhus, he obtains the extraordinary fortune of hearing from the mouth of elevated devotees the scriptures which are filled with the glories concerning the three topics of bhaktas, bhakti, and Bhagavan.

(1) By hearing the sastras, paramarthika or transcendental siddha-sraddha appears. The word sraddha here implies firm belief in the meaning of the bhakti-sastras such as Srimad Bhagavad-Gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, and so forth. (2) Upon the appearance of such sraddha, one again obtains sadhu-sanga and, in their company, begins to receive instructions regarding the methods for executing bhajana. (3) Thereafter, one takes up the practices of bhajana (bhajana-kriya) beginning with sri-guru-padasraya, and so on. (4) By constant engagement in bhajan, anarthas gradually disappear (anartha-nivrtti).
(5) This elimination of anarthas takes place in successive stages. As one becomes progressively freed from anarthas, he attains nistha and freedom from all distractions (viksepa)). At that stage ekagrata (one -pointedness) and nairantaryamayi (incessant striving) arise in the pursuit of bhajana. (6) Thereafter, ruci (taste) or, in other words, an intense hankering (lalasa) for bhajana develops. (7) Then ruci becomes very deep it is called asakti. The difference between nistha and asakti, is that nistha involves application of the intelligence, whereas asakti is spontaneous. In this stage of nistha, even if the mind is not attracted, by one's intelligence one remains devoted to the performance of bhajana. However when one comes to the stage of asakti, the sadhaka has no more dependence on any kind of reasoning faculty of the intelligence. At that stage he is deeply immersed in the performance of bhajana in a spontaneous manner. (8) After the stage of asakti, bhava or rati makes its appearance. (9) At the final stage prema manifests. This is the order of the stages leading to the appearance of prema within the heart of the sadhaka.

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu
Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura

*********************

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-12 19:58 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-12 23:54 ]

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaj said some intersting things. He said
1) You can't get sadhu sanga from a tape recorder
2) International Society for Krishna Concsciousnes means any place where you find devotees who are conscious of Krsna.

We may take help from the tape recording or video recording. Howver if you have a misconception concerning what you hear or read the recording of the guru cannot correct you. The tape recording cannot twist yoiur ear and offer chastisement. Non different in a qulitativ sense of sound vibration does not mean that the tape recording is a substitute or replacement for the vapuh association of a pure soul. Otherwise why didn't Srila Prabhupada simply mail his Krsna Book around the world 17 times. Why he came himself? To give sadhu-sanga.

AS promised here is the rtvk rag:

The Ritvik Rag
(Sung to the tune of the 'Vietnam Rag' from Woodstock.)

Traditional

1. Well, everybody, across the land,
Come on down and join the ritvik band,
Don't you worry if your friends get fried,
When you call their gurus unbonafide,
Read "The Final Order" and get inspired,
Discretion is not required!

(Chorus)
And it's one, two, three,
What are we fightin' for?
Don't worry, 'cause it's authorized,
All the leaders are demonized!
And it's five, six, seven, nobody initiate,
'Ain't no time for common sense,
Whooppee! Make another offense!

2. Those books and letters from the BBT,
Have all been changed by the GBC,
'Though 'ritvik guru' cannot be found,
Henceforward you can stand your ground.
The Founders' words do not apply,
Except on the 9th of July!
(Repeat Chorus)

3. My whole darn life is a catastrophe,
Because of decisions by the GBC,
Did they goof, or did they lie,
Ask my guru, K.K. Desai,
ISKCON leaders are all such fools,
No wonder I can't follow the rules!
(Repeat Chorus)

4. Well, if you're worried 'bout being pure,
Ritvik philosophy is the cure,
Feelin' guilty about your sin?
Log right on to VNN!
Jump on in and join the fun,
Pass judgement on everyone!
(Repeat Chorus)

5. All your troubles will melt away,
As ritvik philosophy saves the day,
The Final Order brings you relief,
From upset stomach as it whitens your teeth!
Shove it down the throat of the institution,
Zeig heil! It's The Final Solution!
(Repeat Chorus)

6. Well, never mind those conditioned souls,
We gotta move for political control,
Smarta brahmans have got it right,
Gurus and swamis should not be white,
Why aspire for pure devotion,
When you can raise a commotion!
(Repeat Chorus)

7. Take control of the sankirtan mission,
Try our brand of linguistic fission,
"His" sounds a lot like "He is" to me,
And that tranforms the whole philosophy,
Splittin' hairs is such a thrill,
Just ask our President Bill!
(Repeat Chorus)

8. Won't you join me at quarter to three,
For a ritvik initiation ceremony?
Prabhupada saves! Glory, Hallelujah!
He takes the karma and we take the moolah,
Sit right down for a change of pace,
And do the ritvik in my place!
(Repeat Chorus)

by Salman Rushdie.

What did one rtvk say to the other? I am hungry prabhu. Let us enjoy honoring the picture of prasadam. After all the photo is non different than the actual food.

Why did the rtvk cross the road:
To avoid any real philosophical discussion based on guru, sadhu and sastra!!!

Discussing sadhu sanga and guru tattva with rtvks is like talking to the tar baby:

tar baby story follows in my farewell post.

The tar baby is any rtvk wallah
Brer Rabbit is anyone fool enough to go messin where he don't belong, like discussing with the rtvk tar baby anything of substance.
Brer fox must mean IRM or the gbc.

[irm = hard rtvks, who say you don't need any living diksa guru, you can take diksa from Srila Prabhupada even after his samadhi.

gbc= soft rtvks, who say you don't need any living siksa guru, you can get everything from Srila Prabhupada's vanih in books and tapes, and from your local gbc/appointed rep who give diksa by gbc proclamation.]But hard or soft, stool is stool prabhus.
A two sided rtvk coin. Heads irm, tails gbc.
Both asara, useless. Read Cc. Adi lila 12.8-12

The rtvk wallah on this thread are soft boiled. A bit of both hard and soft, but still unclear about what association, approach (Bg. 4.34) and what the difference between vanih and vapuh really are or for that matter what the vanih actually is in the first place.

.Uncle Remus, the teller of this tale, must be a siksa guru for practical intelligence.

THE WONDERFUL TAR BABY STORY

I be in dat deya briar patch chanting my rounds rtvk wallahs. You try to tar up some other brer rabbit prabhu on dese heyah forums now why dontcha???

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-13 00:08 ]

On 2002-01-10 15:26, sg108 wrote:
"Jadurani dasi also known as Syamarani dasi (a name given by Narayan Maharaj) thinks that Srila Prabhupada hasn't given us everything."

"We need NM to further advance."

"A discipe of Prabhupada taking initiation from someone else?! This is NONSENSE!"

"Srila Prabhupada has given us EVERYTHING in his books and recorded lectures! We must have that faith that he will take us back to Godhead if we become attached to his lotus feet! Not that after his dissapearance from our material vision we start running around like a prostitute to this guru or that guru.
"Becouse I can't serve his physical body any longer, he's not present before these two limited eyes, I must find somebody who's body is present infront of ME." NO! We can serve His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada DIRECTLY as Sudama prabhu has said. Even if we can't "see him" we get his FULL association when we read his books, listen to his lectures and serve him through his instrucions. Srila Prabhupada's system he set up for us is PERFECT and COMPLETE.
He explains it in ENGLISH for us to understand. Prabhupada extends his mercy to EVERYONE. And not just a few intimate disciples. He can take us all back to Krishna if we are willing to follow. There is no need for gaudiya-math sanyasis to xplain the meaning of what is Prabhupada saying! Prabhupada explains it himself!"

http://bvml.org/contemporary/appendix.htm

"Does Narayan Maharaj want to become the next acarya of ISKCON and kick Srila Prabhupada off his seat in the name of taking us further, giving us more than what Srila Prabhupada has given us?!"

Oh my, lions and tiger and bears oh my. Now I have to take shelter of the irm or my gbc ecclesiasticaly appointed guru and the local tp, just like Dorothy going to see that wizard in Oz. Remember how the wizard was nothing more than a charlatan carnival hack hiding behind a curtain and some sound effects? He must have been a false guru.
Look what he did. He gave the scarecrow that diploma and he got word jugglery and academics for a brain. He gave the tin man , a clock (tic-toc)for a heart, the lion courage in the form of a testimonial. Was he a real guru or did the gbc of Oz appoint him??? I am getting a bit confused. Must be rtvk madness. I better avoid any real philosophy or I will melt just like the wicked witch of the east.

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-13 00:37 ]

Srila Prabhupada's physical presence is not required in order for one to receive his mercy. There are many examples of people who, simply by reading Srila Prabhupada's books, have given up sinful life and started the process of Krishna consciousness in their own homes. This is tangible proof that the physical presence of the pure devotee is NOT required in order to receive his mercy.

Let us consider this simple example:

Example A: The year is 1976 and Srila Prabhupada is giving a lecture at the temple. The temple room is very crowded with devotees eager to hear him speak. Srila Prabhupada speaks into a microphone and the lecture is broadcast over speakers to the rest of the rooms in the temple. Bhakta John hears the lecture from within the kitchen. No one will doubt that Bhakta John heard the lecture just as well as the devotees sitting in the temple room, and he had equal opportunity to make advancement by hearing the lecture. It is not required to SEE Srila Prabhupada to understand what he is saying.

Example B: The year is 2002. Bhakta Mike purchases the exact SAME lecture on a cassette tape or CD disk and listens to it at home.

What exactly is the difference between the two devotees? Both John and Mike did not SEE Srila Prabhupada yet they both heard the exact same lecture. Where in the shastra is it said that one must SEE the pure devotee in order to receive his mercy?

From Srila Prabhupada's conversation:

You are defective. Your senses are defective. Therefore, in the Vedic literature: "Don't try to see with your eyes, but try to see by ear, sruti. " Sastra-caksusa. You should accept as your eyes the sastras. Not your so-called eyes. (end)

One of the Narayan maharaj followers who lives nearby was telling us the other day that in order to get the mercy of the pure devotee that you need to 'Look into his eyes' and that he transfers the shakti to the disciple through his eyes. Strange philosophy if you ask me. I'll stick with hearing from His Divine Grace and reading his books.

I am Srila Prabhupada's duly initiated disciple. I took harinama from him in the summer of l970 and second in l971. You can check the folio to corroborate my first initiation at 439 Henry St. in Brooklyn.

I am also the siksa disciple of Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja. He told me personally that I should study His Divine Grace's books very carefully. He told me: "They are treasure chest filled with diamonds",

He has never told me that I "required" his assistance to understand what Srila Prabhupada has written. However there is no doubt that the mercy of a siksa guru will reveal the absolute truth. The fact is that the mercy of siksa guru only serves to illuminate and reveal the eternal truth in the words and instructions of one's diksa guru. If you think that what His Divine Grace wrote is linear and think that only the surface meaning of his writing is its limit, then you don't understand what you are reading at all. Srila Prabhupada's mercy is not limited to your narrow minded conception of him.

In this connection Srila Sridhar Maharaj has said:

"So, the absolute and the relative are two different classes of interest. And we find more importance in the absolute interest. We must be sincere to our own creed. The form is necessary to help me in a general way to maintain my present position. At the same time, my conception of the higher ideal will always goad me to advance, to go forward, and wherever I do, I must follow the greater model, the greater ideal. Spiritual life is progressive, not stagnant.
We are in the stage of sadhana, and we want to go ahead, not backwards. The formal position will help me to maintain my present status, and my extraordinary affinity for the ideal will goad me towards the front. The search for Sri Krsna is dynamic and living, so adjustment and readjustment is always going on. And we should also change our present position accordingly, so that we may not have to sacrifice the high ideal for which we have come. Einstein had to leave Germany and go to America for his high ideal of life. And so many similar instances may be found in the world. The ideal is all in all. The highest ideal in a man is his highest jewel. Our most precious gem is our ideal. . . . What we have received from our spiritual master we understood only in a rough estimation. Now, things have come in such a way that we have to scrutinize ourselves in every position. We have to analyze ourselves. Atma-niksepa,self-analysis has begun. We are under trial. What we have received from our spiritual master, in what way have we received it? Properly, or only showingly? The time has come to purify us, to test whether we are real students, real disciples,or his disciples only in face and confession. What is the position of a real disciple? If we live in a society, what is the depth of our creed? In what attitude have we accepted his teachings? How deep-rooted is it within us? The fire has come to test whether we can stand. Is our acceptance real? Or is it a sham, an imitation? This fire will prove that.

". . . .Sometimes the father may not be our guardian. Our uncle may be our guide, and not the father. It is possible. The line of interest is to be considered the most important. So, our line is the siksa guru parampara.

"I am thankful to those that are helping my spiritual understanding not only in a formal way, but in the real sense. Whoever is untying the knots of our entanglement in this material world, giving us light, and quenching our thirst for inner understanding and satisfaction is our guru. In this way, we live on the contribution of all these spiritual masters. They are all our siksa gurus. All the Vaisnavas are more or less our instructing spiritual masters.

"And our own sincere hankering for the truth will be our guide. That is guru parampara. So the real disciplic line provides practical knowledge in support of the divine love which is coming down. We must bow our heads wherever we find support of that. We should not becomeformalists, but substantialists; not fashionists, not imitationists, but realistic thinkers. That should always be our temperament."
Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja
Sri Guru and His Grace
http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/sri_guru_5.htm

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura has said:

"This line of guru-parampara is existing up to today without any break and it will continue to exist like this in the future also. To say, 'There is no sad-guru living in the world at present and neither will there be any in the future,' is an atheistic opinion."
True Conception of Sri Guru Tattva ,p.2

". . . Our most worshipable spiritual master Sri Srila Prabhupada has bestowed his affectionate blessings not only to his disciples, but to his grand-disciples and all those who will in the future come to this line of disciplic succession. There is no cause for loss of hope or fear, for Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's line will never cease. This is the assurance of Sri Srila Prabhupada, the world teacher. He is eternally present among us. He is my Lord birth after birth, he is my only source of strength and those following in his footsteps should take his merciful instructions on their heads by mutually cooperating with each other, with Jagat Guru Sri Srila Prabhupada as the center, and try to fulfill his desires in serving the mission of Srila Rupa Goswami. All perfection will be attained on pleasing Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada."
published February 16, 1998 in the special issue on the 124th Advent of
His Divine Grace Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada

He reasons ill who thinks that viasnavas die
for they are living still in sound.
The vaisnava die to live
And in living try to spread the holy name around.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Understanding this full well, everyone still needs the association of living sadhus, and uninitiated devotees need diksa from a living sad guru. KC without such association of sadhus is a rtvk myth.

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-13 09:37 ]

I never said that I didn't want to associate with sadhus. This isno doubt an essential part of our advancement in Krishna consciousness. It's not asif we are sitting here all alone in a room listening to Prabhupada lecture tapes allday and night without seeing any other devotees.

Actually we hear the lectures and read Prabhupada's books in the association ofother devotees. Some of them are quite advanced devotees.

The problem I have with most of the followers of Srila Narayan Maharaj is that they insist that if I don't go hear from NM then I am going to hell, I'm an offender, etc. It feels more like talking with a born again Christian than talking with another devotee. I don't go around telling Srila Narayan Maharaj's disciples that they have to only accept Prabhupada - why must they tell me that I have to accept Narayan maharaj in order to understand Srila Prabhupada?

I also have many siksa gurus but the PRIMARY siksa guru is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I'm always happy to have an advanced devotee share their realizations and help me learn more about Krishna consciousness. But in my mind no one will ever replace Srila Prabhupada as my spiritual guide.

I don't want to hear from Narayan Maharaj because he teaches something differentthan what I have read in Srila Prabhupada's books. The emphasis is placed stronglyon rasa-lila and so-called 'higher topics' like Lord Krishna's pastimes with the gopis, while Bhagavad gita and other Krishna-lila are downplayed as 'inferior'. I'm not saying this is true of ALL of NM's disicples but in general that has been my experience.

We went to one of Srila NM's lectures in Hawaii once and he said that Prahladmaharaj was not so important because he was in a 'lower' rasa. To say that we don't care for Prahlad maharaj because he's not in madhurya rasa is a great offense, I think.

Just my 2 cents.

Sudama

Here's what I mean:

The following is a quote from http://www.narayanamaharaja.com/:

http://www.narayanamaharaja.com/text/y2001/lecture20010217.htm

"Druva Maharaja had worldly desires. Prahlada Maharaja was a very bona fide bhakta, and he never wanted anything worldly, but he could not serve Krsna. His bhakti was mixed with jnana, knowledge of the Lord's opulence. If you have some worldly desire, or any desire, then your bhakti may be sanga-siddha bhakti or aropa-siddha bhakti, but not pure transcendental bhakti. "

September 23, 1972 lecture:

So Prahlada Maharaja, a pure devotee, he did not like to make any exchange. Then again he was offered a chance, "You can at least, whatever you have desire within your mind, you can ask from Me." So again Prahlada Maharaja said, "My dear Lord, in this material world, who could be more powerful than my father? I have seen it. Even big demigods, they were trembling in the presence of my father, he had so much power. Practically he was the topmost of all material power. But I have seen also that within a second You have finished everything. So what is the value of this material power? Why should I ask from You? Kindly engage me as servant of Your servant. If You want to give me something, please engage me as the servant of Your servant." And still, because he was Vaisnava, he prayed to Lord Nrsimha, "For my personal, I am quite satisfied. If I can chant Your holy name, then there is nothing more I want. But there is one thing I want." What is that? "My father was a great atheist, and demon, and he has committed so many offenses unto You. But I request that You forgive him." This is Vaisnava son. And Lord Nrsimha said, "My dear Prahlada, before you are requesting like that, your father, his father, up to fourteen fathers, all are delivered because you are his son." Such a devotee, taken birth in a family, this is a special concession. Whatever the others may be, they are all delivered.

When Prahlada Maharaja was offered benediction by Nrsimhadeva, due to his great devotion and tolerance he refused to accept any benediction from the Lord, thinking that such acceptance was not befitting a sincere devotee. The rendering of service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in expectation of a good reward is deprecated by Prahlada Maharaja as mercantile business. Because Prahlada Maharaja was a Vaisnava, he did not ask a benediction for his personal self but was very affectionate toward his father. Although his father tortured him and would have killed him had he himself not been killed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Prahlada Maharaja begged pardon for him from the Lord. This favor was immediately granted by the Lord, and Hiranyakasipu was delivered from the darkest region of hellish life, and he returned back home, back to Godhead, by the grace of his son. Prahlada Maharaja is the topmost example of a Vaisnava, who is always compassionate toward sinful persons suffering a hellish life within this material world. Krsna is therefore known as para-duhkha-duhkhi krpambudhih, or one who is compassionate toward others' suffering and who is an ocean of mercy. Like Prahlada Maharaja, all pure devotees of the Lord come to this material world with full compassion to deliver the sinful. They undergo all kinds of tribulations, suffering themwith tolerance, because that is another qualification of a Vaisnava, who triesto deliver all sinful persons from the hellish conditions of material existence.

Bali Maharaja said: My grandfather Prahlada Maharaja is the only person who understood his own self-interest. Upon the death of Prahlada's father, Hiranyakasipu, Lord Nrsimhadeva wanted to offer Prahlada his father's kingdom and even wanted to grant him liberation from material bondage, but Prahlada accepted neither. Liberation and material opulence, he thought, are obstacles to devotional service, and therefore such gifts from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are not His actual mercy. Consequently, instead of accepting the results of karma and jnana, Prahlada Maharaja simply begged the Lord for engagement in the service of His servant.

This is why I won't go hear him speak - because he teaches something different than Srila Prabhupada. I'm not going to respond to any further posts - we can leave it to the readers of this thread to decide for themselves who is right. But I will leave with this final quote from Srila Prabhupada:

Lecture August 22, 1973

So this kind of guru, this kind of rascal, will not help you. Guru must come from the parampara system by disciplic succession. Five thousand years or five millions of years, what was spoken by the supreme God or guru, the present guru also will say the same thing. That is guru. That is bona fide guru. Otherwise, he's not guru. Simple definition. Guru cannot change any word of the predecessor. There is one instance in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life. One gentleman, (he) is Vallabha Acarya. He was very much devotee of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He wrote one comment on Srimad-Bhagavatam, Subodhini-tika, it is called. That is recognized, nice tika, comment. But he approached Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was very great devotee of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So he simply said that "Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Lord Caitanya, if You hear my comment on the Srimad-Bhagavatam, You'll find it is far better than Sridhara Svami's." Sridhara Svami is the very old commentator. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu immediately rejected: "Oh, you are claiming thatyou have written something better than Sridhara Svami?" He chastised him.Svami means another... He sarcastically remarked, the word svami, Sridhara Swami, svami, another svami means "husband." So He said, svami jiva nahi mane besa bali guni(?): "I think one who does not recognize svami, he's a prostitute." He immediately said. "You do not recognize Sridhara Svami, then you are a prostitute. How can I hear from a prostitute?" He refused. Only word, that "I have written better than Svami." So this is the process of guru. You cannot disobey the previous acarya or guru. No. You have torepeat the same thing. Not research. Sometimes rascals come, that "You are speaking the same thing. Why don't you speak something new by research work?" We say that we have no intelligence, we cannot make any research. We are... Guru more murkha dekhi koriya vicara. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that "My Guru Maharaja saw Me a great fool number one." So one who remains a great fool number one before his guru, he is guru. And one who says that "I'm advanced so much that I can speak better than my guru," then he's rascal. This is the process.

On 2002-01-13 11:02, Sudama wrote:

" The problem I have with most of the followers of Srila Narayan Maharaj is that they insist that if I don't go hear from NM then I am going to hell, I'm an offender, etc."

" It feels more like talking with a born again Christian than talking with another devotee. I don't go around telling Srila Narayan Maharaj's disciples that they have to only accept Prabhupada - why must they tell me that I have to accept Narayan maharaj in order to understand Srila Prabhupada?"

"I also have many siksa gurus but the PRIMARY siksa guru is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. I'm always happy to have an advanced devotee share their realizations and help me learn more about Krishna consciousness. But in my mind no one will ever replace Srila Prabhupada as my spiritual guide."

"I don't want to hear from Narayan Maharaj because he teaches something different than what I have read in Srila Prabhupada's books. The emphasis is placed strongly on rasa-lila and so-called 'higher topics' like Lord Krishna's pastimes with the gopis, while Bhagavad gita and other Krishna-lila are downplayed as 'inferior'. I'm not saying this is true of ALL of NM's disicples but in general that has been my experience."

"We went to one of Srila NM's lectures in Hawaii once and he said that Prahlad maharaj was not so important because he was in a 'lower' rasa. To say that we don't care for Prahlad maharaj because he's not in madhurya rasa is a great offense, I think."

"Sri Sanatana GosvamAi Prabhu, the teacher of the science of devotionalservice, wrote several books, of which the Brhad-bhagavatamrta is very famous;anyone who wants to know about the subject matter of devotees, devotionalservice and Krsna must read this book."
HDGACBSP Cc. Adi lila 5.203 purport

"Just my 2 cents. "

Also you haven't given us the definition of "sadhu" that you use as a criteria for yourchoices in association. I appreciate this explanation of who is a sadhu, offered bySrila Hrydaya Bon Maharaj who has written:

["II) SADHU SANGA: Company of Sadhus or Saints. This means an individualseager desire to be in the company of a Sadhu in order to learn the methods ofspiritual practices for God realization alone and for no other purpose. But who is aSadhu?

According to Bhagavatam, Canto XI, Chap. 11, Slokas 29 to 31, the followingare the qualities of a genuine Sadhu or Saint: A Sadhu is kind; he cherishesanimosity toward none; he smilingly endures even the bitterest miseries; heloves Truth as the vein-blood of his life; he never allows any evil thought topollute his mind; he looks upon all with equal love and compassion; hedoes not entertain any kind of mundane desires to darken his mentalquantum; he is self- controlled, amiable and pure in character; he remainsfarthest from any attempt to accumulate for his future subsistence and doesnot beg anything form anybody; he is abstentious and peaceful; he issteady in his mind; he depends absolutely on the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna, andremains in constant remembrance of the Lord; he is patient, solemn,magnanimous and undisturbed even by utmost provocations and turmoils;he has control over hunger, thirst, lamentations ,infatuation, birth anddeath; he does never aspire after respect for himself, but is alwaysrespectful to others; he is friendly to all; his heart is full of compassion forothers; he is fully conversant with the real nature of God; and he is erudite.To keep company with such a one in person, thought and throughdiscussions is Sadhu-sanga.

Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharaja
Introduction
Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu

" Chapter Six
How to Discharge Devotional Service

Srila Rupa Gosvami states that his elder brother (Sanatana Gosvami) hascompiled Hari-bhakti-vilasa for the guidance of the Vaisnavas and thereinhas mentioned many rules and regulations to be followed by the Vaisnavas.Some of them are very important and prominent, and Srila Rupa Gosvamiwill now mention these very important items for our benefit. The purport ofthis statement is that Srila Rupa Gosvami proposes to mention only basicprinciples, not details. For example, a basic principle is that one has toaccept a spiritual master. Exactly how one follows the instructions of hisspiritual master is considered a detail. For example, if one is following theinstruction of his spiritual master and that instruction is different from theinstructions of another spiritual master, this is called detailed information.But the basic principle of acceptance of a spiritual master is goodeverywhere, although the details may be different. Srila Rupa Gosvami doesnot wish to enter into details here, but wants to place before us only theprinciples. "

On 2002-01-13 11:33, Sudama wrote:
Here's what I mean:

The following is a quote from http://www.narayanamaharaja.com:/

http://www.narayanamaharaja.com/text/y2001/lecture20010217.htm

Druva Maharaja had worldly desires. Prahlada Maharaja was a very bona fide bhakta, and he never wanted anything worldly, but he could not serve Krsna. His bhakti was mixed with jnana, knowledge of the Lord's opulence. If you have some worldly desire, or any desire, then your bhakti may be sanga-siddha bhakti or aropa-siddha bhakti, but not pure transcendental bhakti.

But here's what Srila Prabhupada has to say about Prahlad Maharaj:

September 23, 1972 lecture:

So Prahlada Maharaja, a pure devotee, he did not like to make any exchange. Then again he was offered a chance, "You can at least, whatever you have desire within your mind, you can ask from Me." So again Prahlada Maharaja said, "My dear Lord, in this material world, who could be more powerful than my father? I have seen it. Even big demigods, they were trembling in the presence of my father, he had so much power. Practically he was the topmost of all material power. But I have seen also that within a second You have finished everything. So what is the value of this material power? Why should I ask from You? Kindly engage me as servant of Your servant. If You want to give me something, please engage me as the servant of Your servant." And still, because he was Vaisnava, he prayed to Lord Nrsimha, "For my personal, I am quite satisfied. If I can chant Your holy name, then there is nothing more I want. But there is one thing I want." What is that? "My father was a great atheist, and demon, and he has committed so many offenses unto You. But I request that You forgive him." This is Vaisnava son. And Lord Nrsimha said, "My dear Prahlada, before you are requesting like that, your father, his father, up to fourteen fathers, all are delivered because you are his son." Such a devotee, taken birth in a family, this is a special concession. Whatever the others may be, they are all delivered.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.21.47 Purport:

When Prahlada Maharaja was offered benediction by Nrsimhadeva, due to his great devotion and tolerance he refused to accept any benediction from the Lord, thinking that such acceptance was not befitting a sincere devotee. The rendering of service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in expectation of a good reward is deprecated by Prahlada Maharaja as mercantile business. Because Prahlada Maharaja was a Vaisnava, he did not ask a benediction for his personal self but was very affectionate toward his father. Although his father tortured him and would have killed him had he himself not been killed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Prahlada Maharaja begged pardon for him from the Lord. This favor was immediately granted by the Lord, and Hiranyakasipu was delivered from the darkest region of hellish life, and he returned back home, back to Godhead, by the grace of his son. Prahlada Maharaja is the topmost example of a Vaisnava, who is always compassionate toward sinful persons suffering a hellish life within this material world. Krsna is therefore known as para-duhkha-duhkhi krpambudhih, or one who is compassionate toward others' suffering and who is an ocean of mercy. Like Prahlada Maharaja, all pure devotees of the Lord come to this material world with full compassion to deliver the sinful. They undergo all kinds of tribulations, suffering them with tolerance, because that is another qualification of a Vaisnava, who tries to deliver all sinful persons from the hellish conditions of material existence.

Srimad Bhagavatam 5.24.25

Bali Maharaja said: My grandfather Prahlada Maharaja is the only person who understood his own self-interest. Upon the death of Prahlada's father, Hiranyakasipu, Lord Nrsimhadeva wanted to offer Prahlada his father's kingdom and even wanted to grant him liberation from material bondage, but Prahlada accepted neither. Liberation and material opulence, he thought, are obstacles to devotional service, and therefore such gifts from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are not His actual mercy. Consequently, instead of accepting the results of karma and jnana, Prahlada Maharaja simply begged the Lord for engagement in the service of His servant.

If Srila Narayan Maharaj is as he claims, the 'dearmost siksa disciple' of Srila Prabhupada then why does he disagree with his siksa guru on such a basic point, namely whether or not Prahlada maharaj is a pure devotee or not? Srila Prabhupada has clearly established that Prahlada was a pure devotee, free from all desires for improvement of his material situation by means of karma, jnana, or yoga perfections, yet Narayan Maharaja seems to disagree.

This is why I won't go hear him speak - because he teaches something different than Srila Prabhupada. I'm not going to respond to any further posts - we can leave it to the readers of this thread to decide for themselves who is right. But I will leave with this final quote from Srila Prabhupada:

Lecture August 22, 1973

So this kind of guru, this kind of rascal, will not help you. Guru must come from the parampara system by disciplic succession. Five thousand years or five millions of years, what was spoken by the supreme God or guru, the present guru also will say the same thing. That is guru. That is bona fide guru. Otherwise, he's not guru. Simple definition. Guru cannot change any word of the predecessor. There is one instance in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's life. One gentleman, (he) is Vallabha Acarya. He was very much devotee of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He wrote one comment on Srimad-Bhagavatam, Subodhini-tika, it is called. That is recognized, nice tika, comment. But he approached Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was very great devotee of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So he simply said that "Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Lord Caitanya, if You hear my comment on the Srimad-Bhagavatam, You'll find it is far better than Sridhara Svami's." Sridhara Svami is the very old commentator. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu immediately rejected: "Oh, you are claiming that you have written something better than Sridhara Svami?" He chastised him. Svami means another... He sarcastically remarked, the word svami, Sridhara Swami, svami, another svami means "husband." So He said, svami jiva nahi mane besa bali guni(?): "I think one who does not recognize svami, he's a prostitute." He immediately said. "You do not recognize Sridhara Svami, then you are a prostitute. How can I hear from a prostitute?" He refused. Only word, that "I have written better than Svami." So this is the process of guru. You cannot disobey the previous acarya or guru. No. You have to repeat the same thing. Not research. Sometimes rascals come, that "You are speaking the same thing. Why don't you speak something new by research work?" We say that we have no intelligence, we cannot make any research. We are... Guru more murkha dekhi koriya vicara. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that "My Guru Maharaja saw Me a great fool number one." So one who remains a great fool number one before his guru, he is guru. And one who says that "I'm advanced so much that I can speak better than my guru," then he's rascal. This is the process.

"Sri Jiva Gosvami is our preacher of transcendental truth. So he is alwaysunder the influence of Sri Rupa and Sanatana. Moreover in the pastimes ofKrsna Sri Jiva is one of the manjaris. So he is conversant with alltranscendental realities. There are some who, being unable to understand the drift of his statements,give meanings of their own invention and indulge in useless controversies."

"Rupa and Sanatana say that there is no real and essential distinctionbetween the lilas visible and nonvisible, the only distinction lies in this thatone is manifest in the mundane sphere whereas the other is not so. In thesupermundane manifestation there is absolute purity in the seer and theseen. A particularly fortunate person when he is favored by Krsna, canshake off worldly shackles and connections, enter the transcendentalregion after attaining the realized taste of the varieties of rasa that isavailable during the period of novitiate. Only such a person can have a viewand taste of the perfect and absolutely pure lila of Goloka. Such receptivenatures are rarely to be found. He, who exists in the mundane sphere, canalso realize the taste of cid-rasa by the grace of Krsna by being enabled toattain the realized state of service. Such a person can have a view of thepastimes of Goloka manifested in the mundane lila of Gokula. There iscertainly a difference between these two classes of eligible seekers of thetruth. Until one attains the perfectly transcendental stage he must behampered by his lingering limitations, in his vision of the pastimes ofGoloka. Again, the vision of the transcendental reality varies according tothe degree of self-realization. The vision of Goloka must also varyaccordingly. "

If everyone will first read Brhad Bhagavatamrta we can have some fruitfuldiscussion, otherwise not. The reader must keep in mind the larger picture of whatlevel and mood of bhakti were taught by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

I'll post one more time tomorrow to address the specific points made in the quotedpurports, but the last quote about rascal gurus is highly inappropriate to thisdiscussion and should be applied where it belongs and not in reference to acaryasin or gaudiya line.

You are simply a vaisnava aparadhi masguerading as a followers of His DivineGrace. Turn Krsna consciousness into a sectarian religion ifyou like, but don'tpretend that you are a disciple of our guru parampara when you reject anugatyafrom self realized souls.

[ This Message was edited by: Puru Das Adhikari on 2002-01-14 19:40 ]

Prahlada Maharaj has what relationship with LordNrsmhadeva?

Prahlada Maharaj has what position in Krsna lila?

Prahlada Maharaj is a pure viasnava in what rasa?

You answer these questions on the basis of guru, sadhu and sastra and then youcan speak about what Srila Narayana Maharaj has explained about his position asa jnani bhakta, otherwise not. You owe Srila Narayana Maharaja and all the readershere an apology for subjecting them to your fault finding and offensive thinking in thename of following Srila Prabhupada.

"It is better not to mix with my Godbrothers veryintimately because instead of inspiring our students and disciples they maysometimes pollute them. This attempt was made previously by them, especiallyMadhava Maharaja and Tirtha Maharaja and Bon Maharaja but somehow or other Isaved the situation. This is going on. We shall be very careful about them and notmix with them. This is my instruction to you all. They cannot help us in our movement,but they are very competent to harm our natural progress. So we must be verycareful about them."

Srila Prabhupada
from the letter to Rupanuga
Tirupati
28 April, 1974

Brer Rabbit = a cyber poster, any devotee with a sincere desire to discussguru tattva in a serious way.

Tar Baby = rtvk advocates, who argue for its own sake, but never speak onthe basis of guru, sadhu and shastra. Tar babies can get you stuck upwith tar, but don't really have anything of substance to really say.

Brer Fox = IRM/GBC, or any fascist, or "philosophical terrorist" who likesto impose his will on others, tell others how and what to think. BrerFox can also represent all vaisnava aparadhis, sadhu nindasexraordinaire.

Brer Bear (Brer Fox's sidekick) = temple presidents who follow GBC rulesand resolutions even when they contradict the order of the founder-acaryaand Srila Rupa Gosvami.

The briar patch = the shelter of mahabhagavata Vaisnavas and the holynames of the maha mantra, suddha bhakti and vaisnava association.

Here is the Uncle Remus Tale:

He went to work and got some tar and mixed it with some turpentine. He fixed up a contraption that he called a Tar-Baby. When he finished making her, he put a straw hat on her head and sat the little thing in the middle of the road. Brer Fox, he lay off in the bushes to see what would happen.

Well, he didn't have to wait long either, 'cause by and by Brer Rabbit came pacing down the road -- lippity-clippity, clippity-lippity -- just as sassy as a jaybird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit came prancing along until he saw the Tar-Baby and then he sat back on his hind legs like he was astonished. The Tar-Baby just sat there, she did, and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"Good morning!" says Brer Rabbit, says he. "Nice weather we're having this morning," says he.

Tar-Baby didn't say a word, and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"How are you feeling this morning?" says Brer Rabbit, says he.

Brer Fox, he winked his eye real slow and lay low and the Tar-Baby didn't say a thing.

"What is the matter with you then? Are you deaf?" says Brer Rabbit, say she. "Cause if you are, I can holler louder," says he.

The Tar-Baby stayed still and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"You're stuck-up, that's what's wrong with you. You think you're too good to talk to me," says Brer Rabbit, says he. "And I'm going to cure you, that's what I'm going to do," says he.

Brer Fox started to chuckle in his stomach, he did, but Tar-Baby didn't say a word.

"I'm going to teach you how to talk to respectable folks if it's my last act," says Brer Rabbit, says he. "If you don't take off that hat and say howdy, I'm going to bust you wide open," says he.

Tar-Baby stayed still and Brer Fox, he lay low.

Brer Rabbit kept on asking her why she wouldn't talk and the Tar-Baby kept on saying nothing until Brer Rabbit finally drew back his fist, he did, and blip -- he hit the Tar-Baby on the jaw. But his fist stuck and he couldn't pull it loose. The tar held him. But Tar-Baby, she stayed still, and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"If you don't let me loose, I'm going to hit you again," says Brer Rabbit, says he, and with that he drew back his other fist and blap -- he hit the Tar-Baby with the other hand and that one stuck fast too.

Tar-Baby she stayed still, and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"Turn me loose, before I kick the natural stuffing out of you," says Brer Rabbit, says he, but the Tar-Baby just sat there.

She just held on and then Brer Rabbit jumped her with both his feet. Brer Fox, he lay low.

Then Brer Rabbit yelled out that if that Tar-Baby didn't turn him loose, he was going to butt her crank-sided. Then he butted her and his headgot stuck.

Brer Fox walked out from behind the bushes and strolled over to Brer Rabbit, looking as innocent as a mockingbird.

"Howdy, Brer Rabbit," says Brer Fox, says he. "You look sort of stuck up this morning," says he. And he rolled on the ground and laughed and laughed until he couldn't laugh anymore.

By and by he said, "Well, I expect I got you this time, Brer Rabbit," says he. "Maybe I don't, but I expect I do. You've been around here sassing after me a mighty long time, but now it's the end.

And then you're always getting into something that's none of your business," says Brer Fox, says he. "Who asked you to come and strike up a conversation with this Tar-Baby? And who stuck you up the way you are? Nobody in the round world. You just jammed yourself into that Tar-Baby without waiting for an invitation," says Brer Fox, says he. "There you are and there you'll stay until I fix up a brushpile and fire it up, "cause I'm going to barbecue you today, for sure," says Brer Fox, says he.

Then Brer Rabbit started talking mighty humble.

"I don't care what you do with me, Brer Fox, says he, "Just so you don't fling me in that briar patch. Roast me, Brer Fox, says he, "But don't fling me in that briar patch."

"It's so much trouble to kindle a fire," says Brer Fox, says he, "that I expect I'd better hang you," says he.

"Hang me just as high as you please, Brer Fox, says Brer Rabbit, say she, "but for the Lord's sake, don't fling me in that briar patch," says he.

"I don't have any string, " says Brer Fox, says he, "Now I expect I had better drown you, " says he.

"Drown me just as deep as you please, Brer Fox," says Brer Rabbit, says he, "But please do not fling me in that briar patch, " says he.

"There's no water near here," says Brer Fox, says he, "And now I reckon I'd better skin you," says he.

"Skin me Brer Fox," says he. "Snatch out my eyeballs, tear out my ears by the roots," says he, "But please, Brer Fox, don't fling me in that briar patch, " says he.

Of course, Brer Fox wanted to get Brer Rabbit as bad as he could, so he caught him by the behind legs and slung him right in the middle of the briar patch. There was a considerable flutter when Brer Rabbit struck the bushes, and Brer Fox hung around to see what was going to happen.

By and by he heard someone call his name and 'way up on the hill he saw Brer Rabbit sitting cross-legged on a chinquapin log combing the tar pitch out of his hair with a chip. Then Brer Fox knew he had been tricked.

Brer Rabbit hollered out, "Born and bred in the briar patch. I was born and bred in the briar patch!" And with that he skipped out just as lively as a cricket in the embers of a fire.

Sripad Puru Das
Prabhu Page