Interview with Umapati Maharaj and Shyamarani didi

Two of Srila Prabhupada’s senior-most disciples, who both served Prabhupada at his first temple, at 26 Second Avenue, touched base after a long time of not seeing each other.

After a separation of thirty five years, Umapati Maharaja (at that time ISKCON initiating guru) and Syamarani dasi met in the ISKCON temple in Nanning, China, in July of 2006. Following is the conversation that ensued.

Syamarani dasi: Haribol, Umapati Maharaja. I am so happy to be invited here.

Umapati Maharaja: I invited you here because I am here, and it’s a great pleasure to see you. Welcome to Nanning. I came here to China on the principle that I would simply preach Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavad-gita. It contains everything. My policy is that if I just preach from that, everything will work out.

Syamarani dasi: Bhagavad-gita is magic. Yesterday we were in Shen-zen, where there are many Buddhists who say the ultimate is zero. We preached from Bhagavad-gita’s chapter six, dhyana-yoga, and they were so happy.

Umapati Maharaja: In Taiwan we preach a lot to Buddhists.

Syamarani dasi: Would you like me to share some things about the early days with Srila Prabhupada?

Umapati Maharaja: Sure (Speaking to the assembled devotees). Syamarani ‘s paintings are worshiped all over ISKCON.

Syamarani dasi: Just as Umapati Swami did, I met Srila Prabhupada in 1966. My first meeting with Prabhupada was at Thompkins Square Park, in the Lower East Side of New York City. I saw the kirtana party there. Srila Prabhupada was sitting on an Indian rug, he was playing his drum, and the devotees were dancing in front of him. After the kirtana he and his party left with their instruments and the rug, and I was just standing there, amazed.

I was thinking that what I had seen was like something from another planet. Just then a stranger came up to me and asked, “Would you like to go to the temple?” I didn’t know what “the temple” was, but said, “Okay.” We walked to Prabhupada’s temple on 26th 2nd Avenue. As I stood by one of the walls inside the temple, I overheard two new brahmacaris talking to each other. In those days they called Prabhupada “Swamiji.” One brahmacari said to the other, “Did you hear what Swamiji just said? He said that when devotees have arguments with each other, they should see it just like clouds passing by. When clouds pass by, you don’t even notice.” That was the day and age when so many of us youth were picketing for peace – against the war in Vietnam –so I thought that Prabhupada’s concept was pretty profound.

Then someone asked me, “Would you like to go up to Swamiji’s quarters?” I said, “Yes.” In my mind, I was thinking that I was God and that everything was my imagination and creation.All conditioned souls think they are God, either directly or indirectly.

Because the pure devotee reads minds, Srila Prabhupada said, “This is nothing that we have made up. This process is very old, very simple and sublime.” Then he invited me to come to his classes. Even though I lived an hour and a half away and would have to take about three trains, beginning at 5.00 in the morning, because of the power of his invitation, I came every morning for his 7am program.

In those days there was no mangala-arati as there is now. The program was that Prabhupada would sing the samsara prayers (Sri Gurvastakam) and the Hare Krsna maha-mantra in the most beautiful morning tunes. After that he would say, “Chant one round,” and we would all chant together with him. Removing his beads from his bead bag, he would hold them across the lectern just in front of him, and chant one round with the devotees.

Then he would begin his most beautiful class. He was first speaking on Bhagavad-gita. I had come in the beginning of October, and after one month he began speaking about Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. Every morning, from the beginning of November 1966 until the beginning of January 1967, he spoke on Sanatana-siksa, which is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu speaking to Sri Sanatana Gosvami in the Madhya-lila. The subject Prabhupada was speaking about was the Lord’s sweetness and opulence. Krsna has an opulent feature, which includes His different kinds of incarnations and His breathing in and out universes. Higher than His opulence, though, is His madhurya, or sweetness aspect, in which the inhabitants of His abode, Goloka Vrndavana, have no idea that He is God.

I remember one stupendous class that Prabhupada gave in the beginning of January, 1967. He told us about how Krsna is in so many universes at one time. For example, Sri Krsna stays in any one universe for one hundred and twenty five years. But He is not only in one universe at a time. There is not only one universe and nine planets as the scientists teach us, and this isn’t the only planet inhabited by intelligent beings. There are many, many planets occupied by beings more intelligent than we on this planet are, and there are many universes as well. Prabhupada told us how Krsna takes birth in a universe and begins His pastimes there. Then, one second later, He appears in another universe. Then, in the 3rd second, which is the 2nd second in the 2nd universe and the 3rd second in the first universe, He takes birth in yet another universe. His appearance in different universes goes on second after second for one hundred and twenty five years. Prabhupada told us, “You can imagine how many universes there are.”

After his morning classes, Prabhupada would arrange for us to have a very beautiful breakfast of cereal cooked with bananas, and with the sweet juice from rasagullas added to it. It was really good.

During the day, it was so easy to go and see him. Sometimes Kirtanananda was there with him, taking care of his apartment, but he never stopped anybody from coming in, except when Prabhupada was sleeping. We could go up and ask Prabhupada any question at any time. I remember once asking him the question, “How come there is evil here?” He answered, “Because you wanted it.” Everything he said was so profound and so simple at the same time. A devotee once asked him, “How do you make this very deep, complex, inconceivable philosophy sound so simple?” He replied, “Because it is simple. God is great. You are not great. Therefore you are not God, so you should surrender to God.”

Prabhupada used to spend some part of each day in translating. Because it took him years to complete the full translation of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta with its purports, (it was completed in 1974), every day he would dictate, on his old dictaphone machine, a part of his summary of Caitanya-caritamrta. In this way, he created the book The Teachings of Lord Caitanya.

In January, 1967, he went to San Francisco for a few months, and started his second temple there. When he came back to New York in April, we figured we were like senior devotees, because we had now been with him for a few months, and now there were so many new devotees coming in to the Movement.

On his return he continued his Caitanya-caritamrta classes, a few of which were later published in his introduction to The Teachings of Lord Caitanya. He told us in one of those classes, “There is nobody but God, and He has a desire to enjoy love. So who will share His love? Simultaneous to His desire was the fulfillment of His desire, and Srimati Radharani manifested. We therefore have the divine couple, Radha and Krsna.”

In 1966, before Prabhupada went to San Francisco, he gave me a very old and beautiful picture of Radha and Krsna, and told me to paint a large canvas painting of Them. Then, just before he came back, Gargamuni had the completed painting hung over his vyasasana. When he saw it, he told us that Sri Sri Radha and Krsna are non-different from Their picture. .

Srila Prabhupada’s apartment was behind the temple and courtyard, on the second floor. Each day he would come from his apartment, through the courtyard, and into the back entrance to the temple. Whenever he came in, he would bow down in front of that painting of Radha-Krsna, to show us that we should always have reverence for Them. He wanted us to understand that the authorized picture is non-different from the transcendental Person.

When I finished the first painting of Panca-tattva, which Prabhupada had me copy from a small print, it also went up on the wall, and Prabhupada told the devotees in his class, “Now Lord Caitanya is here. There should be no more nonsense in the temple.”

Umapati Maharaja: Can I interrupt you for a minute? You speak very lovingly about Prabhupada. But the local followers of Narayana Maharaja tell us that Prabhupada is not a perfect spiritual master, and that the devotees here should leave this temple and go to your temple. This is a cause of great friction between the two groups.

Syamarani dasi: Anybody who says that Prabhupada is not a perfect spiritual master is not a true disciple of Srila Narayana Maharaja. That is quite a bogus statement. I am not saying that you are making the bogus statement, but that anybody who says that is making a bogus statement.

Umapati Maharaja: This attitude is causing friction between ISKCON and Narayana Maharaja’s group. They are saying that if you follow Srila Prabhupada, you cannot attain Goloka.

Syamarani dasi: Again, I say that anybody who says such things cannot really be a follower of Srila Narayana Maharaja. They may claim to be, but in principle they are not. I have personally been with Srila Narayana Maharaja for the past 14 years – since 1992, and have had the good fortune to travel with him from country to country for many years. Along with a few other devotees, I am responsible for putting his lectures on the internet. We have to hear his lectures again and again to make sure we have typed all his statements accurately, to put on the internet. My total experience of him, and also the experience of hundreds of my god-brothers and god-sisters who have taken shelter of him, is that he glorifies Srila Prabhupada more and better than anyone I have ever heard in my whole life. Sometimes he even slightly trembles and slightly weeps when he speaks about Prabhupada and his relationship with him. He regards Srila Prabhupada on an equal level with his own guru, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, who is Prabhupada’s sannyasa-guru.

Perhaps you remember when Prabhupada’s sannyasa-guru left this world in 1968. Prabhupada was in Seattle at that time. I remember hearing from him about his beautiful relationship with that god-brother and sannyasa-guru. He had the devotees in Seattle, New York and San Francisco sign a condolence card. He composed a verse about Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, which was very similar to the verse that Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami composed about his siksa-guru, Srila Sanatana Gosvami. Prabhupada changed a couple of words to make it more personalized. He said, “I take shelter of Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja who, out of his intense compassion, made me take the sannyasa order.” Prabhupada also said in that class, “This god-brother of mine has now gone back to Goloka Vrndavana.”

I didn’t know until many years later, when I saw the translation from Bengali to English, that Prabhupada had written to Srila Narayana Maharaja saying, “Please send me a picture of Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja to add to the line of spiritual masters on all the altars in our temples.” Prabhupada wrote that he would have his artist paint a portrait from that photograph. At that time Srila Prabhupada was having me paint the spiritual masters for all his temples.

Srila Narayana Maharaja always glorifies Prabhupada in the most beautiful way; I couldn’t even imagine such glories of Prabhupada. He says, “You say that Prabhupada gave everything, but you don’t know how much he gave.” Sometimes he would present a fascinating concept that I had never heard before, and I would ask him, “Where does Srila Prabhupada say that?” He would give the reference, I would go and look it up in the Caitanya-caritamrta and be amazed. As you said, I am speaking about Prabhupada with love. I don’t know what love is, but as best as a conditioned soul can, I have loved Prabhupada since the day I met him. And since I met Srila Narayana Maharaja, my love for Prabhupada continues to increase more and more. Therefore, I can say from my heart, that anyone claiming to be from Srila Narayana Maharaja’s group, who says Srila Prabhupada is not a perfect spiritual master, cannot, in truth, be from that group.

Umapati Maharaja: Maybe you can clear up some misunderstanding. Did Narayana Maharaja ever say that Prabhupada preached to the mass, and he preaches to the class? (Meaning that while Srila Prabhupada preached to the general masses, he, Srila Narayana Maharaja, preaches to the more qualified elite).

Syamarani dasi: No. At least in the one thousand lectures that I have heard, he has not said this. Srila Prabhupada taught all the fallen souls that Krsna is God. But he wants us to develop a loving relationship with Krsna in Vrndavana, in one of five rasas, or relationships. In the realm of Vrndavana, Krsna is not known as God, but as a cowherd boy. To forget that Krsna is God at our level of development would be an offence. But both Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja say that to ultimately forget that Krsna is God, is our goal in Krsna-consciousness. Srila Narayana Maharaja told us that Srila Prabhupada told him to clarify this further for us.

Umapati Maharaja: Do you have to go through Narayana Maharaja to develop that stage?

Syamarani dasi: One can to through any guru who is qualified on the level of vraja-bhakti. Srila Narayana Maharaja is such a guru.

Umapati Maharaja: Can we get to that stage by following Srila Prabhupada?

Syamarani dasi: Most definitely.

Umapati Maharaja: Is it necessary to leave the ISKCON temple and live in Narayana Maharaja’s temple to develop that?

Syamarani dasi: I myself have to say that, on the contrary, I want to go to the ISKCON temples, but I am not allowed to. I was surprised and deeply moved that an ISKCON leader invited me, in a loving way, to come to an ISKCON temple to talk with him and his followers. I am speaking of you, Maharaja.

Umapati Maharaja: First of all, I could not refuse an opportunity for Jadurani’s darsana.

Syamarani dasi: Very funny. (To the devotees) He’s a comedian.

Umapati Maharaja: Secondly, I believe things should be discussed openly.

Syamarani dasi: I am so happy, honored and grateful to have you bring all this up.

Umapati Maharaja: And I knew I could get straight answers from you. People are coming and saying this and that, so I want to know what the score is. I know you are devoted to Prabhupada.

Syamarani dasi: I want to be still more devoted.

Umapati Maharaja: So, why are people coming here and saying these things?

Syamarani dasi: In any situation, people have different versions of that situation. Even “authorized” history books differ. I would like to give a little of my vision of the history since Srila Narayana Maharaja began meeting with devotees of ISKCON.

I met him in February of 1992. At that time many of my god-brothers, such as Tamal Krsna Maharaja, Giriraja Svami, Sivarama Svami, Danudhara Svami, Bhurijana prabhu and many others had been seeing him for many years. There was a very loving relationship between Srila Narayana Maharaja’s sanga and ISKCON’s sanga. During the Vraja-mandala parikrama, the ISKCON leaders would take the ISKCON parikrama party and meet with Srila Narayana Maharaja’s party. They would have him lead everybody, and he would describe the pastimes of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna in all the different pastime places. Tamal Krsna Maharaja would ask him superlative questions, which I couldn’t even dream of asking. That would inspire Srila Narayana Maharaja to explain so many wonderful things. The parikrama busses of the ISKCON party and Srila Narayana Maharaja’s group would be organized together. I am picturing this as I speak. It was so lovely going to the different pastime places and forests of Vrndavana.

At that time, some ISKCON devotees were reading books that had been translated by Radha-kunda babajis. As a result, they were becoming sahajiya-minded, and leaving the true Gaudiya sampradaya and Bhaktisiddhanta-dvara which our Srila Prabhupada brought from Goloka Vrndavana. The ISKCON sannyasis were telling Srila Narayana Maharaja that many of the ISKCON devotees were going to the Radha-kunda babajis and imagining that they were gopis. There were “husband gopis” and “wife gopis,” and they would all have illicit sex together. You may remember this from 1975? It was still happening in the early 1990s. These god-brothers of ours, the ISKCON GBC-gurus, asked Srila Narayana Maharaja to give them private classes on the true Gaudiya perspective of the books from which the Radha-kunda babajis were speaking. The ISKCON gurus wanted to encourage wayward devotees to avoid deviation and stay with Srila Prabhupada and our true line. So on request, Srila Narayana Maharaja was giving classes on the authorized Gaudiya conceptions of the books of the Gosvamis, and also on Srimad Bhagavatam 10.29-32, the rasa-lila chapters, which we had actually been reading about since 1970 in Srila Prabhupada’s KRSNA book. Srila Prabhupada summarized the commentaries of Srila Visvanatha Cakravarty Thakura and Srila Jiva Gosvami in KRSNA book. Srila Narayana Maharaja, in his classes, elaborated on those commentaries. When I began coming to see him, I attended some of these classes.

Umapati Maharaja: When the split between ISKCON and Narayana Maharaja was looming, devotees were saying that if there was to be a split, they would leave ISKCON and go stay with Narayana Maharaja. Narayana Maharaja told Tamal Krsna Maharaja that he would never allow such a thing. He said he would never allow anyone to leave ISKCON and live in his temple, because when you leave the institution, you leave the spiritual master. Nowadays it seems that having devotees leave their institution is all Narayana Maharaja does.

Syamarani dasi: I am so happy that you are such an open and honest person, and that you are bringing your heart’s feelings and disturbances out in the open. I cannot confirm or deny anything that Tamal Krsna Maharaja claimed Srila Narayana Maharaja said to him in private. Who am I to comment on what happened when I wasn’t there? However, from the thousands of classes and darsans that I have attended, I know a different Srila Narayana Maharaja than that. I will come back to this in a minute. But just to confirm that the doctrine of the spiritual master being bound by the managerial institution is not Srila Narayana Maharaja’s philosophy, I will tell you that, in recent times, there was such a split in Srila Narayana Maharaja’s Indian institution, the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti.

The Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti was established in 1941 by three disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Srila Prabhupada and his sannyasa-guru god-brother, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, were two of those disciples. The name ISKCON is actually an English translation of Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja is to the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti what Prabhupada is to ISKCON. He left this world in 1968, and his institutional successor was Srila Bhaktivedanta Vamana Maharaja. Srila Vamana Maharaja left this world two years ago, after saying that he wanted Srila Narayana Maharaja and another sannyasi named Sripad Parjatak Maharaja, to be the two institutional successors of the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Some time later, other acaryas of Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti began criticizing Srila Narayana Maharaja for going to the West and dealing with us mlecchas. It was the same old story – you’ve heard it before, when some of Srila Prabhupada’s god-brothers criticized him for the same thing. There were other issues as well, such as Srila Narayana Maharaja receiving many thousands of dollars from the Westerners and building temples in India. Some of the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti acarayas said he shouldn’t have the temples, although he built them out of his love for the Western devotees They wanted the temples and they didn’t like the Western devotees. For these and other reasons, Srila Narayana Maharaja resigned from that institution and started another institution, called International Bhakti Yoga Society.

But it can’t be considered in anyone’s wildest imagination that he left his spiritual master. He has written his spiritual master’s biography, called Acarya Kesari, a large book filled with the glories of Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja. Srila Narayana Maharaja glorifies his spiritual master all around the world. He is now fulfilling Srila Prabhupada’s 1968 request to him, to have his spiritual master’s picture put in all the temples of the Western devotees. Similarly, what is the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti? It also formerly left the Gaudiya Matha because Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja and some others, saw that Anantacarya and others were misusing the properties of their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. I am telling this to establish that the claim that to leave the institution is to leave the guru does not come from Srila Narayana Maharaja.

Now getting back to the relationship of the ISKCON sanga and Srila Narayana Maharaja’s sanga. In the early ’90s, some ISKCON sannyasis, senior men, and a few of we ladies were going to see Srila Narayana Maharaja. However, some of the other ISKCON GBC members, such as Harikesa Maharaja, Hrdayananda Maharaja, Jayapataka Maharaja and others, couldn’t understand him and they were criticizing him, saying he is against Prabhupada – and a lot of worse things. Because of this attitude of some of the ISKCON leaders, whenever we were in Vrndavana, we weren’t exactly “going to see” Srila Narayana Maharaja, but were “sneaking off” to see Srila Narayana Maharaja. Even big ISKCON gurus were sneaking. Then, in 1995, the GBC’s anti-Srila Narayana Maharaja sector, made up stories that Srila Narayana Maharaja was a sahajiya, and that Tamal Krsna Maharaja and others were wearing gopi dresses – really weird things they came out with. Srila Narayana Maharaja is a strict adherent of the line and precepts of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and he encourages his followers to be the same. There’s generally an air of strict practice in his mathas; for instance, the level of strictness for following Ekadasi in his sanga, compared to our accepted level, is amazing.

Srila Narayana Maharaja was teaching us how unauthorized the philosophy of the Radha-kunda babajis was. He taught us just as Srila Prabhupada did – this is our goal, but don’t twist it and become immoral. The bhava, or mood, of gopis like Lalita or Visakha is not our goal. To kiss and embrace Krsna is not in Srila Rupa Goswami’s line. What will your sadhana be if you imagine and consider such things while in the material body? You will just develop lust. Srila Narayana Maharaja is teaching us that what is hinted at in Srimad-Bhagavatam, and shown in Caitanya-caritamrta and all the Gosvamis’ literatures, is that Mahaprabhu came to give a specific mood called manjari-bhava. The manjaris don’t directly engage with Krsna, but serve Srimati Radharani. The mood of sadhana for this attainment is completely pristine.

For their own reasons, the GBC leaders were portraying Srila Narayana Maharaja as just like the Radha-kunda babajis.

Umapati Maharaja: It is because Narayana Maharaja’s disciples say that he says you have to always be absorbed in the conjugal pastimes of Radha and Krsna, and you shouldn’t even bother reading the Bhagavad-gita.

Syamarani dasi: Those who unauthorizedly claim to be his disciples say that. As I painted many of the paintings for Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I also did five paintings for Srila Narayana Maharaja’s beautiful presentation of Bhagavad-Gita, with the commentaries by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Similarly, he translated Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura’s commentaries of Upadesamrta, The Nectar of Instruction. Srila Prabhupada’s Nectar of Devotion is the summary study of Srila Rupa Gosvami’s Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Srila Narayana Maharaja has translated Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindhu, which is the commentary on that scripture by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. As I mentioned earlier, we send Srila Narayana Maharaja’s lectures all over the world, and anyone who reads those lectures can see that the majority of topics he speaks on concerns Prahlada Maharaja, Bharata Maharaja, Citraketu Maharaja, Ambarisa Maharaja, Devahuti, Hanuman, and the Pandavas, as well as the teachings in Bhagavad-gita.

Srila Narayana Maharaja always points out that the goal of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s followers is the highest level of devotion found in the gopis of Vrndavana. But he spends only five percent of his lecture time on that subject, and ninety-five percent on the other topics. If it was a fact that he taught meditation on the conjugal pastimes of Radha and Krsna to the exclusion of Bhagavad-gita and other topics, he would be contradicting himself by his own actions. If you like, I can send you lectures in which Srila Narayana Maharaja emphasizes, “Don’t jump to the top. The process is to move step by step up through the levels of bhakti. Start with the instruction of Upadesamrta – vaco vegam, manasa krodha vegam, control of the urges of speech, mind and anger, etc. If, in your unqualified state, you try to jump straight up to the conjugal pastimes of Radha and Krsna, you will fall down and break your neck.”

Umapati Maharaja: I think a lot of the problem is coming because all over the world, people are saying that Narayana Maharaja’s disciples are going to our temples and telling the devotees to leave. They say they are coming from Narayana Maharaja’s matha, and they are going to ISKCON temples and telling the devotees to leave. Who can understand that these are not Narayana Maharaja’s teachings?

Syamarani dasi: I understand. It is the same thing with Srila Prabhupada. You have the followers of the “rtvik” theory, who say they are representing Srila Prabhupada; you have the propounders of the appointed guru philosophy who say they are representing Prabhupada; you have the propounders of the philosophy that Prabhupada never appointed anybody saying they are representing Srila Prabhupada. You have some of Srila Prabhupada’s “followers” saying that, “The jiva fell from Goloka Vrndavana.” And you have some of Prabhupada’s followers saying, “The jiva never fell from Goloka Vrndavana.” The propounders of all these contradictory ideas say they are representing Srila Prabhupada. And it is the same way with the followers of Srila Narayana Maharaja. They are on all different levels of understanding and misunderstanding.

Umapati Maharaja: Thank you. You reminded me of something else. This report comes from Giriraja Maharaja. According to him, Narayana Maharaja said, “I will not speak on the fall of the jiva, because if I agree with Srila Jiva Gosvami, I will disagree with Prabhupada, and if I agree with Prabhupada, then I will disagree with Srila Jiva Gosvami.” This suggests that Narayana Maharaja has said that Srila Prabhupada does not agree with Srila Jiva Gosvami.

Syamarani dasi: I am very glad you are so honest and straight forward. My heart is melting that you are bringing up your doubts so openly.

About three years ago, Srila Narayana Maharaja instructed me to produce a book of his lectures about the fall of the jiva. I have had to really concentrate on his lectures on the subject, in order to publish them, and I have also had to concentrate on Srila Prabhupada’s quotes on the subject. When lecturing in many cities around the world, Srila Narayana Maharaja has called on me to quote from Srila Prabhupada on the fall of the jiva, just to show that he is saying the same thing as Srila Prabhupada. There are many recorded lectures as evidence of this. I recently read one lecture that he gave in Badger, California, in 2002, in which he said that one who claims that Srila Prabhupada taught that the jiva fell from Goloka Vrndavana is actually saying that Srila Prabhupada is derailed from his guru-parampara.” He said that Prabhupada would never say anything different from his Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and he would not say anything different from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Jiva Gosvami. Srila Narayana Maharaja mentioned Jiva Gosvami. You can log onto www.purebhakti.com, where Srila Narayana Maharaja’s lectures are posted, and you can read that for yourself.

Umapati Maharaja: Prabhupada said in a letter that before we were in the brahmajyoti, we were in Krsna-loka.

Syamarani dasi: I have copies of Srila Prabhupada’s letters on the subject, because, as I said, we are in the middle of making a book on this subject. The letter you refer to, about the Tal and Crow, was to Madhudvisa dasa. In the book we are about to publish, we quote a couple of sentences at a time from that letter, and we quote from Prabhupada’s books to explain each of the paragraphs of the letter. We show that, although it may look to an uneducated eye that Prabhupada is saying that “previously we were with Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana,” actually he’s not. There is a letter from Prabhupada to Jagadisa dasa, in which Prabhupada said, “You have asked if, before coming to this world, we have ever been with Krsna. Yes, we have been with Krsna, just as the son who comes out of his mother’s womb was previously with his father.” Although the son was with the father, he never played with the father in pastimes. I’ll open my computer, so I can read you those quotes:

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time, the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti, which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state. Therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. Letter to Jagadisa (70-04-25)

This is what Prabhupada is saying in this Tal and Crow letter.

Srila Prabhupada and the acarayas all teach that Krsna is everywhere. The creation of both the tatastha-sakti and the material world is His lila. In the following letter Srila Prabhupada writes, “Even with Krsna, desire for sense gratification is there.” Taken out of the context of the entire letter, the phrase may seem to indicate that a jiva can fall into a desire for sense gratification even in the Lord’s abode. Because He is everywhere He is also present in the tatastha region, where jivas are connected to Him as His parts and parcels, and he resides in the hearts of the conditioned souls as Supersoul.

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there.

There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only…

The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila.

Maharaja, these sentences show that when Prabhupada wrote, “We were previously in Krsna’s sport or Krsna’s lila, he meant that whether we are in the tatastha region or this material world, we are still in Krsna’s lila. The pastime of creating this world is called “srsti-lila”. The creation, maintenance and destruction of this material world are also the Lord’s lila, referred to in Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.4.12) as sad-udbhava-sthana-nirodha-lilaya:

Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative. Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila. Letter 91-5-14

The activities of Paramatma are also the Lord’s pastimes. The conditioned soul has formally, and is also now, associating with that pastime of Sri Krsna:

So we are also associated with Krsna, as Paramatma within the heart. . . . Srimad Bhagavatam (2.10.10 purport)

Also, there are many conversations between Prabhupada and his disciples, which we will be quoting in Srila Narayana Maharaja’s ‘fall of the jiva’ book. The main authority is Srila Prabhupada’s books, like the Srimad Bhagavatam and Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. There are so many quotes, and one of them is in Prabhupada’s purport to Third Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam [SB3.16.26] where Prabhupada writes, “The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuëöha planet, for it is the eternal abode”

Umapati Maharaja: In the story of King Puranjana, the Lord says, “We were once together, and then you left My company.”

[Syamarani dasi:] I am happy that you brought up this point. The “Lord” referred to there is Paramatma, not Krsna. In Srimad Bhagavatam it says this:

In His Paramatma feature, Krsna is the old friend of everyone. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Paramatma, appeared before the Queen as a brahmana, but why didn’t He appear in His original form as Sri Krsna? Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura remarks that unless one is very highly elevated in loving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot see Him as He is. Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.28.51)

The Lord’s Paramatma feature has not come from Goloka Vrndavana, nor can he ever enter Goloka Vrndavana or even Vaikuntha. Although Lord Paramatma uses the words “our original home”, he has never been there. In His original feature as Vrajendrananda Syamasundar Krsna lives in His home. From there He manifests various energies, like the tatastha sakti, and from there He manifests incarnations like Paramatma in their respective regions.

The Paramatma manifestation is also a temporary, all-pervasive aspect of the Ksirodakasayi Visnu. The Paramatma manifestation is not eternal in the spiritual world. Therefore the factual Absolute Truth is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna. He is the complete energetic person, and He possesses different separated and internal energies. Bhagavad-gita (7.4 purport)

If Prabhupada did say that the jiva fell from Goloka Vrndavana, he would have been differing from Srila Jiva Gosvami, and he was not. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world. Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.11.12, purport)

Umapati Maharaja: But the fall of Jaya and Vijay proves that one can fall from the spiritual world.

Syamarani dasi: Jaya and Vijaya did not actually fall down. .

Umapati Maharaja: True, the descent of Jaya and Vijaya was not a fall down.

Syamarani dasi: Exactly. This is one of the salient points in this subject.

Umapati Maharaja: On the other hand, the servant of Lord Caitanya was lured by the dancing girl, so Prabhupada said one can fall even in the presence of the Lord.

Syamarani dasi: When the Lord comes to the material world, many people who are not siddha (perfect), associate with Him. But in Goloka Vrndavana, everyone is siddha. Regarding Madhudvisa prabhu’s letter: First I will introduce it.

Srila Prabhupada and our acaryas all teach that Krsna is everywhere. Because He is everywhere, He is also present in the tatastha region, the neutral region between the spiritual and material worlds, where jivas are connected to Him as His parts and parcels. He resides in the hearts of the conditioned souls as Supersoul. The creation of both the tatastha-sakti and the material world is also His lila – srsti-lila. This is described in the Third Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. So, when Prabhupada writes in this letter, “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna,” it doesn’t imply we were in Krsna-loka. It means, wherever we have been, in the tatastha region or in different bodies, we were always with Krsna. The letter says:

“Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: “Now I am the King.” Separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things, and the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna the desire for sense gratification is there.”

The letter continues:

“There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere of enjoying independently.”

“Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide.”

Syamarani dasi: The Sanskrit and Hindi word for the edge of the beach, the part that is sometimes covered by water and sometimes not, is “tata”. The tatastha is the region between the spiritual and material worlds. In Sanatana-siksa, (Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya-lila) Lord Caitanya teaches Sanatana Gosvami that the Viraja River is in between the spiritual and material worlds, and that beyond the Viraja River, in the spiritual world, there is no maya. So where is the question of anyone contacting maya there?

Continuing with the letter:

“As soon as we forget, immediately illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by maya.”

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going.”

Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking that a very long time has elapsed, but as soon as we awaken, we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila, even in a dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna’s lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime.

Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative. Awake or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila.”
[Letter to Madhudvisa dasa 91-5-14]

Syamarani dasi: Sometimes, in our conditioned state, we may think that Srila Prabhupada sounds a little ambiguous. Actually he is quite clear, but we cannot clearly understand. Prabhupada himself explains why. I remember, in 1966 at 26 2nd Avenue, that Prabhupada gave a quote from Caitanya-caritamrta. He was talking about sakya-candra-nyaya, the “moon on the branch” logic. A child will ask, “Where is the moon?” and the reply is given, “Look, it’s over there, on the branch of the tree.” The idea is that, when imparting a concept, first a simple hypothesis must be given, to indicate general direction. Then, the more complex or scientific explanation follows.

It is unreasonable, when the child grows up, that he should say, “No, no teacher. I will not accept your astronomical concepts, because my mother said the moon is on the branch of the tree.”

Umapati Maharaja: I have a problem with this. You are saying that Prabhupada gave us a childish explanation and not the whole truth.

Syamarani dasi: No, he gave us the whole truth, because he also gave so many further explanations. Prabhupada undoubtedly gave the whole truth. But in certain circumstances we need to be careful not to take an indication he may have given in one sentence, to be always the complete information on a given topic.

Umapati Maharaja: It is getting late, otherwise I would love to hear the rest of this. Can you please send it to me in an e-mail? I invited you here because I am here. I hope that the people in your group will respect the ISKCON law. As long as they continue what they are doing, there will be friction. I like peace.

Syamarani dasi: Sure. I understand.

Regarding this point though: In 1995, the GBC finally resolved that whoever hears, sees or listens to Srila Narayana Maharaja, will go to hell and be rejected by Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON. Before that year, Srila Narayana Maharaja wasn’t initiating anyone from ISKCON. He would always encourage faith in the ISKCON leaders. But at that time, independent of Srila Narayana Maharaja, some devotees were losing faith in their ISKCON gurus, thinking, “I don’t have faith in my guru. What am I to do? I am leaving bhakti.” At that point, seeing such devotees prevented from taking his sanga, Srila Narayana Maharaja gave them shelter and initiated them.

Anyone who took initiation from him, even pujaris who had fallen gurus, or even persons who had never been initiated by anyone, were asked to leave the ISKCON temple.

So in regard to these allegations of Srila Narayana Maharaja’s followers coming to ISKCON temples today and asking devotees to leave, I can’t confirm or deny what I didn’t see. I have only been in china for a few days, so I don’t know what happened a few months ago. I have an individual experience, though. A few years ago, when Srila Narayana Maharaja went to the ISKCON temple in Los Angeles, I was also there. As we were getting into a car in front of the temple, to go to Venice Beach so that that Srila Narayana Maharaja could see the maha-maha Tirtha where Prabhupada had previously gone, I was waving to old friends, and telling them that Srila Narayana Maharaja was now going to where Srila Prabhupada used to go for his morning walks. I was inviting them to please come, so we could share Srila Prabhupada’s morning walk pastimes. The only places of the temple property I entered were Prabhupada’s garden, his quarters and the temple room, along with everyone else. Then, several days later, Bira Krsna Maharaja from North Carolina, told me he had reports that I went into the brahmacarini ashram and told the devotees there to leave ISKCON. But that did not happen. So regarding these other allegations, I do not know what to say.

Umapati Maharaja: The devotees here are saying that Narayana Maharaja’s devotees are coming here and telling them they have to leave and go to Narayana Maharaja – that Prabhupada can only take them as far as Vaikuntha.

Syamarani dasi: I can’t believe that anyone who is a true and authentic follower of Srila Narayana Maharaja would ever say anything as dumb and offensive as that.

Umapati Maharaja: Did Narayana Maharaja ever say that spreading the chanting of Hare Krsna is a pastime of Maha-Visnu?

Syamarani dasi: No, he never said anything of the sort. There is a history to this though. In 1993, Srila Narayana Maharaja gave a class in which he pointed out to his audience that some of Srila Prabhupada’s followers believe that his mission was just to bring varnasrama-dharma and rules and regulations to the world. He said that if this were so, it would make Prabhupada a follower of Maha-Visnu. But actually, he said, Prabhupada came to deliver the gift that Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to give, which is manjari-bhava. In any other Kali-yuga, other incarnations of Visnu or Krsna come with the chanting of the holy name, but that kirtana does not contain manjari-bhava. But in this rare and fortunate Kali-yuga, manjari-bhava, the special gift of Mahaprabhu, is contained in the holy name. And Prabhupada is a follower of Mahaprabhu. Srila Narayana Maharaja said, “It is not possible that Prabhupada is a follower of Maha-Visnu.”

He identified all the traits that show that Prabhupada is not a follower of Maha-Visnu. Sarcastically he said, “So, Prabhupada is a follower of Maha-Visnu?” The transcription of this statement was not edited properly. It was edited as a statement, instead of a question in disbelief, by someone who was not familiar with the actual philosophy. Therefore, so many people misunderstood Srila Narayana Maharaja’s mood and statements. Had I edited this, it would have read, “Do you think Srila Prabhupada was just a follower of Maha-Visnu? Of course not.” That is why I am now managing most of the editing and sending out Srila Narayana Maharaja’s lectures, because I know Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja well. Srila Narayana Maharaja is often gravely misunderstood by those who don’t know him, because of his imperfect English. Recently I was at the home of a devotee in Hong Kong. He had seen the video made of Srila Narayana Maharaja in Holland last year. To him, it appeared that Srila Narayana Maharaja was saying Srila Prabhupada was wrong, and that he was against women. I said, “Let me see the video,” and we watched it together.

The aim of Srila Narayana Maharaja’s class shown in the video, was to point out that Srila Prabhupada is not saying that women are lesser than men – although many people say that Prabhupada does say that. Srila Narayana Maharaja was saying in the class that some devotees claim they are losing faith in Srila Prabhupada because they say he discriminates against women. Srila Narayana Maharaja was saying that this is not so at all. He referred to verse 9.32 in Srila Prabhupada’s original Bhagavad-gita, the purple one with the universal form on the cover. In that edition, of 1968, the translation of this verse reads: “Oh son of Prtha, those who take shelter of Me, though they be of lower birth (comma) women (comma) vaisyas and sudras, can attain the supreme destination”, indicating that women are among those who can attain the supreme destination. Srila Narayana Maharaja said this is correct.

Then he pointed out that in subsequent editions of Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavad-gita, this verse has been edited differently. There is a hyphen after,” – though they be of lower birth – “giving the mismeaning that women are of lower, sinful birth. In Srila Narayana Maharaja’s class, he called on a sannyasi to read this out loud from the 1972 version of Srila Prabhupada’s Bhagavad-gita. Hearing him read this, Srila Narayana Maharaja, referring to the editing and the hyphen instead of the comma, said, “No, that’s wrong.”

The devotee whose house we were at, who was showing us the video, said to me, “Look! Narayana Maharaja is saying Srila Prabhupada is wrong.” So I replied to him that Srila Narayana Maharaja is not an English scholar as was Srila Prabhupada, who studied at Scott’s University. He’s a brilliant Hindi and Sanskrit scholar, but his English is a bit broken. If you don’t know him, according to your own sukrti or lack of it, you may think he’s saying something which he is not saying. If you read our transcription (edited under his own guidance) of that Holland lecture, you’d have a completely different Srila Narayana Maharaja.

Under this kind of misconception, some god-brothers and a god-sister of ours compiled and widely distributed papers using Srila Narayana Maharaja’s quotes and parts of quotes, to try to prove that his teachings differ from Srila Prabhupada’s. I responded with the true meanings of his statements, refuting all the detractors’ so-called points. They tried to use Srila Narayana Maharaja’s statement, “I am also ISKCON” to indicate that he is trying to take over ISKCON. I explained that, since Srila Narayana Maharaja is a siksa-disciple of Srila Prabhupada, he also sees himself as part of ISKCON. I pointed out that they had failed to mention that at the same time, Srila Narayana Maharaja had said, “Brahma, Narada and Vyasa are also ISKCON. Dhruva Maharaja and Prahlada Maharaja are also in ISKCON.” I then confirmed the authenticity of this by quoting Srila Prabhupada saying, “I have not started ISKCON; Brahma started it. I am coming in the disciplic succession.”

Umapati Maharaja: It is now late, but it’s been great to see you Syamarani . When I heard you were coming, I was so happy.”

Syamarani dasi: Oh, I feel the same. As soon as I got to Hong Kong I said, “Where’s Umapati Swami? I want to see him.” I was told you were on the mainland.

Umapati Maharaja: It has been interesting communicating with you.

Syamarani dasi: Well, now I hope we’ll be communicating by cyber space. (To the 20 assembled devotees). What wonderful devotees you all are. I’m very honored to meet you.

Umapati Maharaja: I am so happy to see you. Maybe someday this war between our groups will end.

Syamarani dasi: I hope so. Meanwhile, we can stay in touch. Haribol.

Umapati Maharaja: Hari bol.

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