Srila Narayana Maharaja Responds To Challenges

By Jadurani Dasi

On the morning and evening of April 22, amidst the festivities of hari-katha, kirtanas, bhajanas, and distribution of prasada during his first visit to Salt Spring Island, Canada, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja held two istaghostis. In those istaghostis he responded to doubts regarding his being in the same line as Srila Prabhupada, challenges that he is re-initiating disciples of gurus in good standing, and the propaganda that followers of Prabhupada should not go to hear from him. The transcriptions of those istaghostis are presented herein.

Replying Doubts
(Morning)

I offer my thousands and thousands of humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of my spiritual and transcendental guru, nitya-lila pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, and the same to my siksa-guru, nitya-lila pravista om visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. You know that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You know this. But you cannot worship Him first. Who must you worship first? Those who have told you who is that Supreme Personality of Godhead, what is this world, who you are, and why you should worship Krsna. The modern word for such a person is 'teacher', but the transcendental word is 'guru.' There is no one heavier than him; he is the most heavy, and therefore we should first worship gurudeva. We should first try to glorify gurudeva, and then Krsna will automatically be worshipped and glorified.

We are going to tell something about guru-tattva. In sastra it has been written that jagad-guru is Krsna Himself. guru is not less than Krsna. guru is the rupa of Krsna. Guru is the svarupa of Krsna. Have you heard this anywhere? In the first chapter of Caitanya Caritamrta it has been written that Guru manifests in many forms. All Vaisnavas are guru. We should consider all pure devotees -- not fallen devotees -- to be guru. Among these pure devotees, he who is prominent -- he is actually guru. guru is one, but he has two aspects.

Initially we meet a devotee who shows us the path. He tells us, "You are unhappy in this world -- very, very unhappy. I want that you should be happy. You are not this physical body. You are something other than this. You cannot die; you cannot take birth. You are an eternal part of Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. You are like Him, but now you have forgotten Him, and that is why you had to come here." If he is questioned, "How can I achieve this perfection?" he answers, "I will take you to a Guru, a transcendental guru. He will teach you and give you so many things, and then you can serve Krsna and be happy. So come with me." In this way you are brought to a real Guru. That person who brings you is also a guru, and he is called vartma-pradarsaka. Those who give a way -- a real way -- to come to a qualified guru are also to be honored. We must honor them. If we do not honor them, our way will have an obstacle. Why are they acting as vartma-pradarsaka guru? Because Krsna has inspired them, "Go and bring Me this person." They have some link, and therefore we must honor them. The real guru is called diksa-guru and siksa-guru. Who is diksa-guru? He gives mantra. What is the meaning of mantra? Mantra means the embodiment of Krsna. All mantras are embodiments of Krsna. Don't think that the mantras in our line are less than harinama. Don't think that this mantra cannot go to transcendental Goloka Vrndavana. Kama-gayatri and gopal-mantra are transcendental, and they give a relationship with Krsna. Kama Gayatri was previously brahma-gayatri. Then the personified Upanisads heard the glory of rasa-lila and the gopis' mood, and they developed a very thick greed to attain that. Thus, by the grace of Yogamaya, this brahma-gayatri became kama-gayatri. Kama-gayatri is also in Goloka Vrindavana in another shape. It is in the shape of kama. The intrinsic mood of Radhika is kama, and therefore kama is in the form of Radhika there. A guru must know and have realizations of all these truths.

Sometimes the diksa-guru is superior to the siksa-guru, and sometimes the siksa-guru is so much superior to the diksa-guru. For example, my guru is Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja. I treat Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura as my siksa-guru. Who is superior? Srila Rupa Gosvami is my siksa-guru. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself is siksa-guru. Krsna Himself is siksa-guru. Is my guru superior to Rupa Gosvami, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Nityananda Prabhu, and Krsna? Can you say who is superior? You should know. If you are only worshipping your gurudeva, and not his Gurudeva or his param-gurudeva, if you are not going to listen to Rupa Gosvami, if you are not going to listen to Nityananda Prabhu, if you are not even going to listen to Radhika or Rupa Manjari, then who are you? You are a nonsense bogus person and, in the words of Srila Swami Maharaja, you are a rascal.

Rascals are those persons who only want to hear from their guru, and not from their guru's superiors. They think, "My gurudeva is greater than Rupa Gosvami, Rupa Manjari, Nityananda Prabhu, Advaita Acarya, Gauracandra, and even Radhika and Krsna. My guru is superior. I will only hear from my gurudeva. Such persons are nonsense. We should consider all these things. If you are not ready to hear Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, or even Rupa Gosvami, will your gurudeva be happy? You should realize this fact. Srila Swami Maharaja has come only to glorify all his guru-varga, his entire guru-parampara. He has come to glorify Rupa Gosvami. He has come to glorify Gauracandra and Nityananda Prabhu, and especially Gaura. He has come to glorify Him by teaching that He is not different from Krsna. He is Krsna, taking the intrinsic mood and golden beauty of Radhika. Krsna is not actually taking, but begging, "O Srimati Radhika, Please give Me Your mood. Please give me Your mood." Srimati Radhika replies, "If You will place Your head at my feet, then I will give it to You." How does Krsna reply? He says, "O, my flute is here at Your lotus feet, and My head is here as well." You should know that your guru has come to give these transcendental truths. He was with you for only a very short time in this world. He wanted to give all these things -- not anything else.

He came only to give the message of Rupa Gosvami, but he saw that everywhere there were forests of mayavada and jungles of atheism and ignorance. He wanted to plant Tulasi -- Vrnda. He wanted to plant the love and affection of Krsnacandra, as given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Gaurasundara, and also His associates like Rupa Gosvami, Svarupa Damodara and Raya Ramananda.

He became worried, however. He considered, "What can I do? Where should I give this? Should I plant this Vrnda on the stone? Should I plant these things on a barren land or on the sands of the ocean? Will that give fruit? If not, then what should I do?" He discovered a way. He asked Caitanya Mahaprabhu, "What should I do?"

Mahaprabhu replied, "Oh, you should first make this barren land into a fertile land by cutting the jungles of all mayavada and other apasiddhantas."

When he came to the Western countries he saw that all were taking so many drugs -- so many drugs. Almost all were mad persons, loving dog instead of God. Still he thought, "What should I do? I should give something." First he cut the jungles of all mayavada philosophy, atheism, material science propaganda, and so on. Next he explained that you should worship your own gurudeva first. It was something -- a beginning for beginners. A, B, C, D. A is for apple, B is for ball, C is for cat, and D is for dog. However, when you pass the beginning primary school and enter high school or college, you should not think, "Oh, I will only study the thing I learned at the beginning. I will not obey all these professors. I only want my gurudeva and what he has told us. A means apple, B means ball, and C means cat. Why are you telling different things?" "Narayana Maharaja comes and tells so many different things. We should not accept this. He is glorifying Rupa Gosvami, and he is teaching that we want affection for Radha-Krsna Conjugal. Why is he telling different things? Don't listen to Narayana Maharaja. It will be an offense." What is this? Ignorant persons speak like this. Don't think that I am teaching anything other than what your Srila Prabhupada wanted and wrote. His voice has been recorded on his last day. He ordered me, "Help my disciples." After that he did not speak to anyone. You can get that cassette. Why did he order me in this way? Weeping, he requested this of me. If he had already told everything, then why did he request me in that way? If anyone does not have belief in my statements, he can acquire and hear the cassette.

At that time he spoke in Bengali so that others would not understand. If he were to say that all his disciples were ignorant, that they did not know very much, and that they were imperfect, they may have become upset. For this reason he spoke so many things in Bengali. He told me, "I brought them, but I could not teach them in full." If he had told them everything, and if they were so knowledgeable and expert, why have so many of the senior devotees, even those in the renounced order, fallen down? Where are they now? Where they are now is not Iskcon. They were not Iskcon, they are not Iskcon, and they will not be Iskcon.

Who is Iskcon? Brahma is Iskcon, Narada is Iskcon, and those in their line, like Srila Rupa Gosvami, are Iskcon. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself is the head of this Iskcon. You should know it; He is Iskcon. Srila Swami Maharaja has only changed the name. The name has been translated into English, but the substance is not changed. How can he change love and affection? How can it be changed? Can anyone change the love and affection of Radhika for the lotus feet of Krsna? Can anyone change the love and affection of Krsna for the lotus feet of Radhika? Can anyone change this? It is transcendental, never to be changed.

When Srila Swami Maharaja was in the Scindia Navigation boat he had a heart attack, and then Krsna inspired him, "O, don't be worried. My hands are on your head." Srila Swami Maharaja then came and performed a miracle. He thought within himself, however, "I have not done a miracle. Krsna in me, Caitanya and Nityananda Prabhu inside me -- They have done so." Don't think that I am instructing something other than Srila Swami Maharaja, or that I am not in his line. We are both like puppets.

If there is no need for Prabhupada's disciples to continue hearing from a bona fide guru, then why are they falling? Why? I know more than you, much more than you. I know him since 1946. Some of his sannyasis used to come to me, but where are they now? They were forbidden to continue hearing and properly understanding their gurudeva. If they will come again and serve their gurudeva, then they have a chance -- otherwise not. True Iskcon is a society of pure devotees, and among those pure devotees guru is prominent. That guru is actually the rupa and svarupa of Krsna.

Sripad Aranya Maharaja: Srila Gurudeva is quoting from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila chapter one.

guru krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane
guru-rupe krsna krpa karena bhakta-gane

["According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures, the spiritual master is nondifferent from Krsna. Lord Krsna in the form of the spiritual master delivers His devotees."]

The diksa-guru, that spiritual master who tells you, "You are not this body; you are part and parcel of Krsna," and initiates you with diksa mantras -- gayatri mantras -- he is called krsna-rupa, the direct manifestation of the form of Krsna. It is Krsna Himself who is delivering the jivas by the embodiment of his mercy in the form of krsna-rupa.

siksa-guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa
antaryami, bhakta-srestha,----ei dui rupa

["One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Lord Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord."]

Then there is siksa-guru, the instructing spiritual master. He is called krsna-svarupa, the svarupa of Krsna. There are two forms of Krsna as siksa-guru: one siksa- guru is in your heart all the time. He is Krsna in the heart. He is also manifest outwardly as those Vaisnavas who are supermost, most excellent and perfect. So Krsna helps the devotees by diksa-guru, the krsna-rupa, and siksa-guru, krsna-svarupa.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: You can understand this by the following example. Srila Sanatana Gosvami is the diksa-guru and siksa-guru is Rupa Gosvamipada. Can you tell who is superior and who is inferior? It is difficult for beginners, for the kanistha-adhikari. Madyama-madyama or madyama-uttama-adhikaris can reconcile all these things. Try to be at least madyama. Though one may have taken initiation from Srila Swami Maharaja 30 years before, he may still be kanistha adhikari -- not madyama. Otherwise, there would be no confusion or falling down. A pure devote can never fall down. This is the reason they did not want to listen to anyone other than Srila Swami Maharaja, but they should listen to grow.

I am his friend; I am his siksa-disciple. He is my siksa-guru. In another sense, I took sannyasa from my Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Kesava Gosvami Maharaja, earlier then he did. Your Prabhupada took sannyasa soon after me -- five or six years after-- and therefore we are god-brothers also. He is junior and I am senior in sannyasa order, but he is so much senior because he is the god-brother of my Gurudeva. He is my siksa-guru, and not less than my diksa-guru. Though we are friends, I honor him in this way.

We used to take prasadam on the same seat. When he was penniless, I used to give him my chadder to sit on, and we discussed so many things. He was very fond of my singing and he used to play on the mrdanga while I sang. I sang, "Sri rupa manjari pada, sei mora sampada, sei mor bhajana pujana, sei more pranadhana" and "Radha krsna prana mora, jugala-kisora." He always liked to hear me sing. He used to give Srimad Bhagavatam classes from his writings, and we used to hear him. I took him as my siksa-guru. He was always my friend. He wrote to me, "Your relation with me is a transcendental relation -- like my relation was with my Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura."

Before Krsna called him back, Mahaprabhu called him back, he presented Srila Baladeva Vidayabhusana Prabhu's commentary on Gita, and he made it easy for all of you. By his order and my Gurudeva's inspiration, I translated Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's commentary. His commentary and my commentary are part one and part two. If anyone will realize first his Gita, they can next know the commentary of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura.

Is it the true process given by your Prabhupada that sannyasis should give up sannyasa? Never. I want that all should be very strong, never to fall down. Never give up your guru's line. Who is guru? Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami, and all the Gosvamis. We should not give up their line.



Siksa-guru
(evening)

In the beginning of Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, in the first chapter, Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami prays to be under the guidance of the Six Gosvamis. They are his gurus -- siksa-gurus.

ei chaya guru siksa-guru ye amara
ta"'-sabara pada-padme kori namaskara

["These six are my instructing spiritual masters, and therefore I offer millions of respectful obeisances unto their lotus feet." (Adi. 1.37)]

Srila Kaviraja Gosvami is not praying to the lotus feet of his diksa-guru. Why? He is doing pranama to his siksa-gurus, but who is his diksa-guru? Can you discover who he is? It will be very hard -- very hard. Is it a very wonderful thing that he is not first doing pranama to his diksa-guru, as we do. He has broken away from all the rules and regulations by praying first to his siksa-guru. Why? He who has benefited us the most is actually guru.

There are two disciplic lines: one is pancaratriki guru-parampara, and one is bhagavat guru-parampara. We accept bhagavat guru-parampara, and pancaritriki [the formalities, the formal procedures, of initiation, as delineated in sastra] guru-parampara may also be included within it. Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and Srila Rupa Gosvami have all accepted this bhagavat guru-parampara. Sometimes the pancaritriki guru-parampara may be illegal and against bhakti. It may be [when it stands alone, not being included in the bhagavat parampara], but the bhagavat guru-parampara, under the guidance of siksa-gurus like Srila Rupa Gosvami, Srila Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Svarupa Damodara, and Sri Raya Ramananda, is always authentic.

Some say that Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was the diksa-guru of Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami, and some say it was Srila Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami. However, I consider that when he was in family life, Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami and his elder brother were initiated into the krsna-mantra [gopal-mantra] by a family guru. He does not want to disclose the fact that he left that guru and came to the lotus feet of siksa-guru. Why did he leave? His eldest brother was somewhat against Nityananda Prabhu, and he was committing offenses to His lotus feet at a gathering of devotees at his home. Menaketana Ramadasa, a devotee of Nityananda prabhu, became very angry. He broke his flute and at once left the assembly. Kaviraja Gosvami's family guru supported his elder brother. Though he favored Caitanya Mahaprabhu he was unfavorable to Nityananda Prabhu, and Krsna dasa Kaviraja thus rejected him. He went to Vrndavana, and there he accepted his six siksa-gurus, especially Srila Rupa Gosvami and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami.

In the pancaritrika [or anusthanika (the formal rituals of diksa, such as the utterance of 'svaha' in front of the sacrificial fire)] diksa-guru there may be something wrong [for example, he may not be a self-realized soul]. But in the bhagavat parampara there is never a chance for anything to be wrong. Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami writes about his bhagavat guru-parampara gurus:

sri-rupa-raghunatha-pade yara asa
caitanya-caritamrta kahe krsnadasa

["Praying at the lotus feet of Sri Rupa and Sri Raghunatha, always desiring their mercy, I, Krsnadasa, narrate Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, following in their footsteps."]

yadyapi amara guru--caitanyera dasa
tathapi janiye ami tanhara prakasa

["Although I know that my spiritual master is a servitor of Sri Caitanya, I know Him also as a plenary manifestation of the Lord." (Adi 1.44)]

This is the explanation given by your Prabhupada. I am always following my siksa-guru, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja. I always keep his explanations with me. I am not different from him -- we have the same opinion. Those who do not have very much intelligence cannot understand this fact. Thus, they cannot understand the deep meanings of Srila Swami Maharaja's commentaries.

Sripada Aranya Maharaja: (reading) Sri Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila, chapter 1, texts 44-46. Translation by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada: "Although I know my spiritual master as a servitor of Sri Caitanya, I know him also as prakasa, a plenary manifestation of the Lord. According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures, the spiritual master is non-different from Krsna, krsna-rupa. Lord Krsna, in the form of the spiritual master, delivers His devotees. One should know the acarya as Myself [Krsna], and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is a representative of all the demigods."

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Those so-called gurus who think the acarya is like us -- that he is an ordinary person with a material body and material senses, and maybe somewhat more intelligent than us -- are most offensive. You should do pranama to them from very far away. Don't associate with and don't give any respect to such bogus gurus. And then siksa guru

Sripad Aranya Maharaja: (reading) Text 47: "One should know the siksa-guru, instructing spiritual master, to be the personality of Krsna, krsna-svarupa. Lord Krsna manifests himself as the Supersoul and also as the greatest devotee of the Lord."

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Who is diksa-guru? Who is siksa-guru? The same qualifications will be there in both. For example, Srimad Bhagavatam is the best evidence, more so than the Vedas, more than the Upanisadas, more than Mahabharata, Hari-vamsa, the other Puranas, or any other grantha, scripture. It is amala pramana, spotless evidence. Tulsidasa has translated many of the verses of Srimad Bhagavatam in his Hindi Rama Carita Manasa. In writing his Ramayana, Valmiki also took all siddhanta from Srimad Bhagavatam. All bona fide gurus are in the same line. They are not against one another.

Scripture explains the qualifications of a real guru. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet, samit-pani srotriyam brahma-nistham. ["To understand these things properly, one must humbly approach, with firewood in hand, a spiritual master who is learned in the Vedas and firmly devoted to the Absolute Truth" (Mandaka Upanisad).]

The spiritual master teaches that this world is temporary. Everyone here is mortal and full of suffering. Now you are young, and your thinking is like that of a mad person -- taking so many drugs, and not in natural consciousness. You are thinking, "I am monarch of all. I am happy." But you are not really happy; you can never be happy here.

Hiryanakasipu was almost immortal. He wanted to have the boon of immortality, but Brahma said, "I cannot give you this benediction, but you can take any other boon." Thinking that he was very intelligent, Hiranyakasipu then asked for the benediction that, "I should not be able to die in the day or in the night, neither in the sky, in the water nor on land. I should not be put to death by any creation of Brahma -- not a man, animal, demigod or anyone else. I should not die inside a room, outside a room, in any month, or by any weapon." Brahma agreed to grant these boons.

At once, however, in a moment, Nrsmhadeva came -- that very Nrsmhadeva to whom you sing -- and Hiranyakasipu was killed. But it was not on the earth, nor in the sky, nor was it inside or outside of a room. It was just on the doorway. It was not by any creation of Brahma, nor by any weapon. It was also not in any month; it was in a leap year. Nrsmhadeva kept Hiranyakasipu on His lap, killed him with His nails, and took out his intestines. At that time fire was coming from His mane and all feared Him -- even Laksmi Brahma, Sankara and all the other demigods. They did not dare to approach him.

None of the demigods felt they could pacify the Lord. They cleverly found out a way, however, by sending Prahlada to pacify Him. Prahlada at once jumped onto the lap of Nrsmhadeva and the Lord began to cry. He told Prahlada, "I delayed. I could not come on time. Please forgive me." He requested Prahlada to take any boon, but the boy very bravely said, "O, I am not a business person. I am not here to take anything from You. Those who give and take are businessmen. I have nothing to do with business. I want only service. I want only to serve You so that You will be pleased."

Do you know Ravana? He could not be happy by serving Sankara, Durga, Ganesa, or Kali. He was serving them so much, and by their boon he attained ten heads. He had the boon that if anyone would take his head, another ten heads would immediately come. Still, he was killed in a second. Not only he, but his whole dynasty was destroyed. He had 100,000 sons and 125,000 grand-children. Durga, Kali, Sankara, and Ganesa all fled away from Lanka at that time. They also could not help him.

This was also true for Kamsa. In a moment Krsna jumped on the high throne and took him by the hair. He jumped on the body of Kamsa, and in a thousandth part of a second he was killed. Then Krsna said, "I simply jumped up there and he died. What should I do? I am his nephew. I only wanted to play."

You can understand, therefore, that in this world no one is happy. Presently you do not realize this because you have taken so many drugs, and you are all mad. When you are old, however, at the age of one hundred, you will cry, "O Prabhu, take me. Take me to your place. I am not able to tolerate this suffering." Then a real inquiry will come. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet. At that time you should go to real guru. You will wonder, "How can I be happy transcendentally? You will ask Sastra -- Veda, Upanisad, and especially Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad-Gita -- and all of them will reply, "You should go to a realized guru knows all kinds of sastra, who is expert in all kinds of established truths, and who is perfect. He will be brahma-nistha. He will have some realization of Parabrahma."

If he is expert in sastra but has no realization of Krsna, he is not able to be a guru. He should be rejected as guru. It may be that he can quote all the sastras, but he is not a guru if he has no realization, if he himself is not chanting Hare Krsna Hare Krsna and Govinda Damodara Madhaveti, if he is not always happy, if he has so many problems, if he is very angry and very lusty, if he has no detachment from this world, and if he has many desires. He should not only be detached and know all sastras, but he should be able to satisfy his disciples by his realizations in Krsna consciousness.

In sastra it has been written that if you are eating any food, with each bite you should automatically feel satisfied.

Sripad Aranya Maharaja: In Srimad Bhagavatam it is stated, "Bhakti paresanubhavo virakti anyatra ca." (SB.11.2.42). There, a very simple example has been given to help us understand the effect of practicing real, transcendental devotional service. When we eat food, we must experience three results. The first result is that there will be some pleasure, some taste from that eating. Second, we will have some nourishment in our body and we will become very strong. The third result is that before you were hungry, and now, with every bite you take, gradually that hunger goes away until it has completely gone.

Just as there are three effects from eating, for one who is surrendered unto the lotus feet of sad-guru and is following his instructions--hearing, chanting, remembering, and serving him in all ways--there must be three results. It must come. First, bhakti--that means his sraddha, his faith, is growing, and anarthas are going away. His bhakti, his seva vritti, the mood to serve, will grow day by day. This is the first result. The second result is paresanubhava. Realization must come. Gradually he will realize who he is, who is Krsna, and what is his relationship with Krsna. The third result is virakti, detachment. If one's attachment is steadily growing for Krsna, then at the same time he gradually becomes detached from this world--until there is no attachment at all.

If you are eating but feel no pleasure, no strength, and your hunger is not going away, what does it mean? It means that you must not be eating; otherwise you have some worms in your stomach, or you have a very bad disease. There is some fault. Similarly, if we are hearing, chanting, remembering, and serving for many years but realization is not coming, our seva vritti is not growing, and we are not becoming detached from this world, the conclusion is that we are not practicing bhakti. We are doing something else. In that case we should submit ourselves at the lotus feet of qualified Vaisnavas. They will adjust our practice in such a way that we will come in the line of pure bhakti and these results will come.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Guru himself practices. He serves his gurudeva, all the gurus in the disciplic line, Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu, and Radha-Krsna. Yad yad acarati srestha lokas tad anuvartate, tat tat eva itarah janah. This is acarya. He serves the mission of his gurudeva. Actually, guru is one who has controlled his mind, anger, words, tongue, stomach and genitals. He who has control of these is guru. Those who are not doing so are actually not guru. They have no realization. Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructs that there are bogus persons -- not guru -- who cannot teach others because they are not practicing themselves and they have no realization. If one is not detached from worldly desires and worldly sense gratification, he is not guru -- he is kan-garoo. He is gudu, animals without tails or horns -- the donkey. It has been told in sastra: gurur na sa syatna mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum. ["One should not take up the post of spiritual master unless he is able to lead his disciple from the cycle of birth and death. (Bhag. 5.5.18).]" Mrtyu is on our head. Death is on our head. It may come at any moment.

At any moment, even while sitting here, death may come. When traveling in an airplane, boat or car, they may crash. All may die at any second. Those who can save us -- they are guru. If guru cannot save us from this quickly coming death, if mother, father, husband, wife, sons or daughters cannot save us from this death which may come at any moment, really they should be rejected.

Once Mira wrote a letter to Tulsidas and asked: "What should I do? My husband, and my father and mother-in-law are now all against my spiritual life. They are not favorable. What should I do?" Tulsidas at once wrote a letter in reply: Jineke na priya rama videhi"You should at once reject them all. Don't delay. Prahlada rejected his father and Bharata rejected his mother. The gopis all rejected their husbands, and Bali Maharaja even rejected his gurudeva who told him not to fulfill the desire of Vamanadeva." Bali Maharaja said, "I cannot tolerate such instruction. I am rejecting my guru." Such gurus are blind. Those who are not helping in Krsna Consciousness should be rejected at once. Vibhisana rejected his eldest brother, although he was like his father, and Kaviraja Gosvami rejected his elder brother along with his kula-guru. Don't delay for a moment.

Here is an example: Someone said, "I wanted milk, so I bought a cow -- a very beautiful cow. However, although I was supporting, nursing, and giving her grass and so many things, still she was not giving milk. She was barren. What should I do? I want milk." Someone else replied, "No harm; bring another cow -- a good cow. She will give a calf, and you will have milk." Similarly, if you have somehow selected a guru, but krsna-bhakti is not coming -- our love and affection for Krsna is not coming and we are not developing our Krsna consciousness--reject that guru. If, however, he is humble and admits, "Oh, I am not qualified. You should go and get higher association. You should go to that higher Vaisnava." then he is really a guru. Giving some respect to him, you should try to go to such higher association. Pay respect to your guru even if he is madhyama and doesn't know so much, even if he is not helping so much -- but he is favorable. However, if he is not favorable and is always making obstruction, saying, "You should not attend darsana of any high-class guru. Only be with me and pay some daksina. You are my wealth, my property." then he should be rejected. If any guru considers that his disciples are his property, thinking, "I should enjoy that property." then he is a bogus guru, not a real guru. If you are within such a guru and disciple relationship, both you and that guru will go to hell.

Srila Jiva Gosvamipada has quoted from Mahabharata in his Bhakti Sandarbha. There it is said, 'Gururapi avaliptasya'. If your guru is engaged in sense gratification, if he has no discrimination to think what is good and bad, and if he is criticizing or offending any high class of devotee, at once he should be given up. What should the disciple do next? He should search for an exhalted, realized guru, and this bogus guru should be given up. If you do not give him up and if you continue to have great affection for him, then you will go to hell and that bogus person will also go to hell -- surely. We should know all these things.

Vaisnava hanti nindati vaidvesti. Your guru may know all kinds of sastra and he may be expert in quoting evidence from sastra, but if he is not detached from worldly desires and sense gratification, if he has no realization, and if he is therefore not giving proper respect to sincere devotees, then he is not even a Vaisnava. He is a vaisnava-aparadhi, an offender to Vaisnavas. At once we should give him up, and instead accept a Vaisnava guru. Avaisnaupadesa Go to any very advanced guru who has all the transcendental qualities and therefore never has the chance to fall down.

You should take initiation again from such a bona fide guru. If you don't know any uttama guru, or you are not searching, or if you are unable to search for such a guru, at least you should be in the association of an advanced Vaisnava. Gradually he will help you. If you are not following this, then it will be very hard no progress even in thousands and thousands of years. Guru-nistha is the backbone of bhakti.

Some ask if I am re-initiating. I have never re-initiated. If anyone's guru is fallen or he has no faith in his guru, I will help him. At first, as a promise to myself, I decided I would not make any disciples in my entire life. My gurudeva wanted to give me this acaryapada, position of acarya, but I protested and said, "I am not qualified. I cannot make disciples." Many years later, due to my relationship with your Prabhupada, my siksa- guru, Iskcon leaders used to come and hear from me. I told them that I would only help them, and that I would not initiate anyone.

After some time they became opposed and thought, "Oh, he will take all my property, and he will enjoy as we are enjoying. We will thus be deprived of everything." I was not going to take their property. Then they announced, "No one can go to hear from Narayana Maharaja. If they go, they will be kicked out of Iskcon forever. We have no place for them. They cannot enter our temples." The temple leaders did this with so many, and therefore I began thinking, "What I should do? To whom will the devotees go forj shelter?" I then decided that I must help them, and at that time I began to initiate. After that the leaders told me that I must be under their guidance, but I rejected their proposal.

So I am not re-initiating. I am only trying to help them. If I do not help, then who will help them? Because they have lost faith in their gurus, I am doing so. I have discussed all these things because we should know all sastric conclusions.

Sripad Brajanatha dasa: A question is raised by devotees who are doubting whether we should hear from other advanced devotees. They say that to hear from anyone other than Prabhupada is like prostitution.

Syamarani dasi: People think that if we hear sastra from anyone but Srila Prabhupada, then we are not faithful to him. They think that we should only hear from him, from his own mouth, his own body, or his own books. Even if the same thing is spoken by another pure devotee, still they have the conception that one is like a prostitute and faithless to one's own guru if they hear from 'someone else'.

They are not understanding that guru is one, and also they are not understanding the principle of guru-parampara. Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi 1, states that the siksa-guru is non-different from the svarupa, or the very nature of Krsna, and the diksa guru is non-different from the very form of Krsna. He is not Krsna, but he is a manifestation of the form of Krsna. As we know, Krsna's form and nature are non-different. When His nature is such that He is laughing, the laughter manifests on His form; there is no difference between His emotions and His body. If He is fainting emotionally, then His body faints. Similarly, because the siksa and diksa gurus are manifestations of His nature and form respectively, there is no difference between them. The same person may also be both the siksa and diksa-guru. For example, Srila Prabhupada is both my diksa-guru and my siksa-guru. Or, the diksa and siksa guru may have different forms. My diksa-guru is Srila Prabhupada and my other siksa-guru is Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja. Guru is one because they are both manifestations of Krsna.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has stated in Rag-vartma Candrika that if your diksa-guru has left the world before you are fully mature and before you are able to hear his instructions in your heart, it is compulsory to search out a qualified siksa-guru who is as competent as the diksa-guru. A bona fide siksa-guru will be an equal manifestation of the diksa- guru. There is no difference in instruction between Krsna and Krsna.

If one is inquiring about the highest benefit of life, pure Krsna consciousness, such an inquirer must search out a bona fide spiritual master who has heard from the guru-parampara, who is fully knowledgeable in all sastric conclusions, and who has realized what he is speaking. He is experiencing Krsna face to face. Srila Prabhupada gave the following example: Before he came to the West, he read how it snowed in America, and he told his friends about it. He had no realization of the snow, and therefore he was merely speaking words. When he came to America, then he could understood what snow was -- because he felt it.

Similarly, one who actually sees Krsna and experiences Krsna face to face, is a self-realized soul. His instruction is the same as the instruction of the diksa-guru, because there is no difference between Krsna's instruction and Krsna's instruction. In this way, there is no difference between hearing from Prabhupada and hearing from any other pure devotee. The very meaning of the word Prabhupada is one who is one who is the representative of the lotus feet of Krsna. Any bona fide representative of Krsna's feet is as good as our Prabhupada. Srila Narayana Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada are associates in the spiritual world, and they are associates in this world.

If we ourselves don't understand what our Srila Prabhupada is saying, due to our own lack of bhakti, sukritis, samskaras, or faith in him, we will think that Srila Narayana Maharaja is saying something different. For example, there are at least one hundred or one hundred fifty quotes in Srila Prabhupada's books which say that the jiva can never fall from Goloka Vrndavana. There is no maya there, and therefore there is no question of falling from there. Srila Gurudeva is also preaching like that. Without this belief in the dhama, we cannot advance in Krsna consciousness. Who will want to go to Goloka Vrndavana if there is again maya? This is dhama-aparadha. Because, to our material mind and senses, on a couple of occasions Srila Prabhupada said something that sounded different, if we don't have intelligence to reconcile his statements, we will think he teaches that the jiva falls from Goloka.

It is stated in sastra that vaisnava-aparadha is so dangerous that even if a mahabhagavata commits vaisnava-aparadha he will fall down. Some persons therefore conclude that a mahabhagavata uttama-adhikari, an associate of Krsna, can fall down if he offends a vaisnava. However, it is not possible for him to do so. This statement is Bhagavatam is only there to show the gravity of vaisnava-aparadha.

Only a pure devotee, only a mahabhagavat, can understand another mahabhagavat. Just because I have diksa initiation from Srila Prabhupada, it doesn't mean I can understand a word he says. Real diksa is: di means divya-jnana, realization of my transcendental relationship with Krsna. Ksa means the taking away of all obstacles to bhakti. The real diksa disciple, therefore, is another mahabhagavata, who is an associate of Krsna and who realizes His instruction. As there is no difference between the diksa-guru and siksa-guru, there is no difference between a diksa disciple and a siksa disciple. Srila Narayana Maharaja is a siksa disciple of Srila Prabhupada. A very important point here is that Srila Prabhupada has instructed his disciples to hear from Srila Gurudeva. If you look on the VNN web-site, there is a discussion with Srila Prabhupada and Srila Gurudeva in November, 1977, where, in front of all his disciples, Srila Prabhupada is personally instructing Srila Gurudeva to take care of them. He said at that time, "I brought so many unqualified disciples, and whoever Krsna sent me, with whatever capacity they had, I tried to help them. But I could not fully help them, because of their own disqualification. Now I am going, and I am asking you to help them further."

Srila Gurudeva: If you are not intelligent to go deep, to understand your guru, then you will not be very qualified. Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja Prabhupada, your Gurudeva, has never written, "You should not hear from anyone except me. You should not go to any other person." Has he written this? He would never do so.

He has translated Caitanya Caritamrta, but he has not written any new book. He has translated Krsna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami's work. He has quoted the verses of Rupa Gosvami, Sanatana Gosvami, Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, Svarupa Damodara, Raya Ramananda, Caitanya Mahaprabhu and others. If anyone has curiosity to see the original book, Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, what harm is there? Though he has translated so many books, he has never prohibited his disciples from reading the original books.

He has not written Srimad Bhagavatam, but rather he has translated it. Sometimes I see in these books, "Author: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada", but he is not the author. He has written the translation and commentary. If anyone is reading the Bengali translation and commentary of Srimad Bhagavatam by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, should we reject him? Will your Prabhupada be happy by that?

Suppose Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura were to come to you and say, "These are my instructions. Please hear." What will you do? Will you reject him? Will you say, "Go back. We want only Prabhupada"? This would be a very bogus idea. If Rupa Gosvami or Gaura-Nityananda Prabhu come to you and tell you something, and you say, "Oh, go back, go back. We don't want you. We want only to hear Srila Prabhupada." Will Prabhupada be happy? Never. His mission is only to fulfill their desire. You should not reject them. You should honor them.

I am not different from Srila Swami Maharaja in any way. In the beginning he told you, A, B, C, D. A, apple; B, ball; C, cat; and D, dog. I am telling something more, by his desire. We should not remain in first grade for all time. If we are not gradually developing our study, then we are like foolish persons. We cannot remain in the same position, in the same stage, always. If Srila Swami Maharaja were here now, he would tell you all the same things that I am telling. Surely he would.

Sripad Brajanatha dasa: Next question: Some devotees think that your way of performing the morning program is different from what Srila Prabhupada taught them, and so they cannot accept it. They think it is a deviation.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: I want to clarify this for you. If you are doing arati of Krsna and Radha, what is the use of singing to Nrsmhadeva? You should chant the kirtana by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, by Dina Krsnadasa, and others. Srila Narottama has written, Jaya jaya radha-krsna jugala-milana, and we should chant that. Suppose your gurudeva wants you to give him some mahaprasadam preparation, and instead you pour cold water on his hand. What is this? It is nonsense.

Prabhupada gave some concession for the beginners. Now, if you are performing arcana and arati of Radha and Krsna, then you should sing the song of that very Radha-Krsna arati. If you are performing the arati of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Jaya jaya gauracandra, at that time why should you chant to Nrsmhadeva? If you are offering bhoga, then why chant namo maha-vadanyaya or namo brahmanya devaya? What is the need of those slokas? You should simply pray, "I am offering this bhoga to You. Please accept it. There are so many mantras and so many procedures. At first, for beginners, and for those who had not received second initiation, he said, "Oh, chant namo maha-vadanyaya, and He will accept your offering. But now, in developing further, you must utter the proper mantras and slokas. When performing arati of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, do not sing samsara davanala lidha loka to gurudeva. You should chant that before arati, and while arati is being performed, you should chant, Jaya jaya gauracandra or Jaya jaya Radha-Krsna jugala-milana. This arati should be sung. When you are making a bhoga offering, then you should pray srim klim radha- krsnabhyamor etat nivedyam klim gauraya svaha. This is the method adopted by Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and before that, by Narada, Vyasa, Sukadeva Gosvami, Isvara Puri, and Madhavendra Puri. This was also accepted by Svarupa Damodara, Raya Ramananda, Rupa Gosvami, and especially by Sanatana Gosvami in Hari Bhakti Vilas. He has given all these rules and regulations. Your Prabhupada was so kind, and therefore he made some concessions. He did not want to disturb anyone. He considered, "Somehow they should chant, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna." After that, however, he said, "You should not commit any offense while chanting." After that he told them, "You should chant with a sense of relationship with Krsna." After that there were so many other things he wanted to tell you. He has written it all in his books, but so many were not intelligent to accept all his teachings. They neglected his words. They never honored the mood of their gurudeva, and thus they very quickly fell down. If those who appear to be in good standing are committing offenses, it is understood that they are also falling. They must be fallen. Those who are sincere grhastha-bhaktas or renunciates will be okay. We should therefore try to know the real deep meaning of what Srila Swami Maharaja has written. If they had followed his orders, I think they would never have fallen down. We must go deeply into his teachings.

Sripad Brajanatha dasa: Last question. They think that your mood is different from Srila Prabhupada's. They say that this mood that you have is too high, that it is not for them.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: For a beginner, the second class is too high. But, like a plantworm, he first puts forward one foot on the next leaf or twig, and when he is confident that his foot is situated on sound ground, he lifts the other foot. This is also the process of ascending to the roof. If you are not following, you will think, "I like to remain on the first step, because my gurudeva has told to be here. He has never told me to place my feet on the next step. How I can take my feet from here?"

There was a well made by any father -- for drinking water. His son was thinking, "My father has made a well." After some time the water in the well became contaminated, and there were so many worms there. Ganges was very near, and many good advisors, the son's older and wiser relatives, told him, "Don't take water from this well; otherwise you will fall sick. So many rogas, diseases, will come." The boy replied, "I cannot obey you. My father has made this well. Whether I live or die, I must take water from this well. I don't know Ganges. I will not go to Ganges. I will take this well water." What is this? It is nonsense. You should try to understand what your father did. He wanted to give pure water. If your water is not pure, you should try to make it pure and then drink it. Still better, you should go to Ganges.

We should try to know Srila Swami Maharaja's real mood. In the morning, at the time of mangala-arati, we sing the kirtanas written by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Dina Krsna dasa and other acaryas. My Guru Maharaja has written a very good mangala-arati song. Why should we not sing that? When all the other prayers and worship are completed, we may pray to Nrsimhadeva, "O, please save me from all demons. There are so many demons. You saved Prahlad Maharaja from demons, and I pray that You will also save me. Who are those demons? Oh, lust is a big demon. Anger is a big demon. So you should kindly save me." Then you can pray, "Namaste narasimhaya prahladahlada-dayine..." You should never think that Nrsimhadeva is other than Krsna. Krsna becomes Nrsimhadeva when any demon or danger or problem comes. Krsna Himself becomes Nrsimhadeva.

We should accept the help of those who are helpful in our Krsna Consciousness. You know that Hanuman is very powerful. He is Lord Sankara himself, but we don't want his help. What do we want? We want the help of Sankara when he is in the form of Gopisvara Mahadeva. In that form he will help us. For only giving up all bad habits, Nrsimhadeva will help. But how will he help us in the attainment of Vrndavana and the gopis? Can he give this? Can Hanuman give this? Who will give it?

We will worship those who will give us the mood of the gopis. We can worship Yogamaya, we can worship Giriraja Govardhana, Vrnda devi, Radha Kunda, and Syama Kunda. They are very favorable, and they can give us krsna-prema. Sankara in his form as Rudra cannot give it, and therefore we don't pray to him, and we don't pray to Nrismhadeva for this. When we are in danger, Nrsimhadeva will come, and He will save us as He did Prahlada.

We give so much honor to Nrsimhadeva, but in the appropriate time and in accordance with His mood. If we are remembering Nrsimhadeva when we are doing arcana of Radha-Krsna, then Radha and Krsna will go away. Even if you are chanting kirtana and performing arcana to Radha-Krsna, if you are keeping Nityananda Prabhu there, then, according to our Vedic culture, Radha-Krsna will not be there. They will run away from there.

Therefore, don't keep Radha-Krsna and Gaurcandra-Nityananda Prabhu in the same section of the altar. You can keep only Radha-Krsna and Mahaprabhu on one altar. Because Mahaprabhu is Radha-Krsna Himself, there is no harm in that. There is no rasabhasa. However, if you are keeping Radha-Krsna, Gaur-Nityananda, Nrsimha, Hanuman, Rama, Dvarakadhisa-Satyabhama, Lord Jagannatha-Baladeva-Subhadra, and the gopis on the same altar -- if you are making a mixture of them all -- then Radha and Krsna are really not there. They can never be there. You should realize this.

In Indian culture, if the elder brother is present, the younger brother and his wife cannot play together. Never, never, and never. Baladeva Prabhu is like a father to Radhika. If He is present, Radha and Krsna will not meet. They will quickly run away. Radhika offers pranama to Baladeva Prabhu as a father. Nowadays, in Western civilization, even a woman can go naked even before the eyes of the elder brother of her husband. She can also play with him. In Rasa-sastra, however, if you want to love Krsna and Radhika, you will have to do everything properly. Your Prabhupada could not teach all these things to his unqualified disciples, and therefore he told me to teach them something so that gradually they would learn. If he had told them at that time, they could not have understood. You should try to know all these truths. I am not telling anything other than what Srila Swami Maharaja wanted.


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